I am a bit puzzled
according to the English charts in berachos 2a you write that the Ri is the earliest of times which means it is before sunset. Implying it is between plag and shekiyah since shabos can take place during that time. however, in the Hebrew charts your write that the seudat leyl shabbat is at sunset the same time as r-eliezer. Making R'I and R Elizer the same time not earlier.
Thank You
Ronnie B.
Dear Ronnie,
First of all, to be exact, Ri is one of the authors of Tosfos explaining R'Meir's opinion in the first beraisa.
You understood the English chart correctly. Ri's time is before R' Eliezer.
However, please check again the Hebrew chart. It does not say the Seuda is at sunset. Footnote 3 mentions in the name of Tosfos that R' Eliezer's time is when "it is still day". This might mean before Shekiya and it also might mean "before Tzeis Hacochavim". It is still not the exact same time of how Ri explains R'Meir (even if both are before sunset).
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
ok so on the hebrew chart why doesn't it say he is yotzeh by plag. the ri fits the criteria. just the reasoning of r'tam and ri is different but they hold the same time from plag you are yotzeh.
thank you
Dear Ronnie,
Only Rabeinu Tam openly allows from plag since he holds the halachah is according to R. Yehudah who calls it "night".
Ri does not base himself on R. Yehudah of plag, only on the earliest opinion of the Baraisa (such as a Seudah), which is when it is still day. But why should he agree to plag? See the Rosh and Tosfos Harosh at length, Baal HaMaor, and Insights to the Daf 2b,2c.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
Sorry i feel like we are both missing each others points.
Let me rephrase my question.
R-tam hold we can say shema at plag bec he pegs the recital to the evening prayer therefore acc to r yehudah it can be said as early as plag. However tosfos has problem with that bec the time between plag and shekiyah is contradictory period. Acc to r yehdah it is night for prayer and acc to rabbanan it is day. Therefore he quotes the r'i who says that we don't have rely on r'yehuda opinion and peg it to prayer, we have actual tannaim who hold it can be said before nightfall. He quotes two opinions. One is r'eliezer who says when we sanctify the day. Which is like 45 min. Before nightfall. And quotes another opinion: when we eat our friday night meal. Which can mean we can eat our shabbas meal as soon as we accept shabbos upon ourselves. Now, we can't accept it to early, we can accept it though as early as plag. Therefore, both r'tam and r'i can hold we can say shema at plag just the reasoning is different. Acc. To r'i, there is no contradictory period bec we are not pegging
It to prayer but to the tannaim who say we can say it earlier. Therefore why cant the ri say it begins as early as plag
I apologize if i am not able to articulate my question in the best possible way. If you can call me so maybe we can clear this up it would be really appreciated.
Regards
Ronnie
Dear Ronnie,
Your question is quite clear. However, we understand Ri differently. It does not say "when we eat our Friday night meal and we can choose as early as plag".
When the Tanna says the time people eat "Erev Shabbos" he is referring to a specific time when people would usually eat that meal (earlier than during the week because everything must be ready - Rashi) which is close to nightfall. This is evidently a sign of the time of Ohl Malchos Shamayim of Krias Shma (see beginning of Tzidkas HaTzadik of R. Tzadok Hacohen who equates eating morning and night with Ohl Malchus Shamayim morning and night).
There is no evidence that this opinion allows one to accept Shabbos as early as plag. That is your assumption based on the Halachah l'Ma'aseh which is based on R. Yehudah. However, Ri is not "working with" R. Yehudah. He is explaining R Meir. Furthermore see Tur, (Orach Chaim 235, Zayin through Yud Aleph) who explains Ri as relying on R. Meir and R. Eliezer (only) to understand the minhag of davening early. See there the Chidushai Hagaos in the name of Maharlach, Os Gimel who says "According to Rabeinu Tam one can hurry to read at plag but according to Ri one is not to hurry, etc." The Tur says this is because there is only a short time between all the opinions of the Tana'im listed in the Mishnah and Baraisa. (As opposed to R. Yehudah who holds plag is 1 1\4 hour earlier).
If its still not clear ,we'll write again.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
ok you said : "When the Tanna says the time people eat "Erev Shabbos" he is referring to a specific time when people would usually eat that meal (earlier than during the week because everything must be ready - Rashi) which is close to nightfall."
however, after careful analysis of the English chart, it seems to me that of the 6 opinions only one opinion is in question. Everything else stays the same. That opinion is "when one enters to eat their Friday night meal." Acc. to the R'I that time is before sunset. Acc to Tosfos and Rashi's first approach of R. Acha it is after nightfall the same time as the poor person's dinner time and according to Rashi second approach of R. Acha. it is after the dinner time of the poor person. Everything else stays the same, no other opinion is moved around like the opinion of Friday night dinner time. Now it appears to me that the reason that is so, is bec that time is relative. People accept shabbas upon themselves at different times. therefore, I concluded that acc to r'i interpretation of r'meir that can be as early as one can eat the meal which can be at plag. Now you said the meal is a specific time, when we see that only the other 5 opinion is a specific time, but the Friday night meal is in question what its specific time is.
also I don't understand rashi commentary on the poor person's dinner time, in the original supposition he says he must eat when there is sufficient light since he has no candle. but in conclusion the Talmud states his dinner time is after nightfall. How can he eat if he can't see since it is dark?
also why did tosfos ask a question on Ani, How can eat before recital? why didn't it bother tosfos by the kohen entering to eat his terumah. which is an opinion mentioned before the Ani. and he should have asked them . How can the kohen eat terumah before recital?
I apologize if am not clear or don't have a clear understanding of the sugya. But I would appreciate it dearly if you can help me understand it based on these questions
all the best
Ronnie
Dear Ronnie,
Your asked the Maharsha's question on Tosfos DH Ani.
He answers that the Mishnah is giving the time that the Kohen could eat Terumah. But the expression "when the poor person eats his meal" sounds like it is his actual eating time.
Your question on Rashi: DH mi'she'ha'Ani is asked by the Meiri. He says this can't be the explanation in the Maskana since it is then after dark. The Meiri only asks and doesn't answer. (One would then have to learn that Rashi changes his explanation and the Ani has a candle but eats earlier than others because he has less to prepare). Thank you for mentioning the Netziv's explanation.
Concerning eating early Erev Shabbos, see Tosfos (Pesachim 99b, DH Ad), that "Seudas Shabbos and Yomtov can be eaten while still day, as it says in Berachos 27b that a person can Daven Shabbos Davening on Erev Shabbos and make Kiddush while it is still day". And once it is considered "evening" for eating, the Torah considers this time "b'Shachbecha", the time when one is in the process of going to sleep, which begins by the evening meal.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
yes but that is according to R'Yehudah in Pesachim, which is r'tam
so how does that answer the r'i
Dear Ronnie,
You made a good point. Tosfos Pesachim 99b DH Ad is explaining the Mishnah there. The Gemara (100a) concludes that the Mishnah is R' Yosi and not R' Yehudah.
Tosfos, though, brings proof from Rav in Berachos 27b. The Gemara there connects Rav with R Yehudah, at least as a Hava Amina.
Magen Avraham 267:1 also explains, like you, that to daven Erev Shabbos early means to rely on R' Yehudah. However, he quotes "Ayin Shin" (apparently Olas Shabbos), who says that even the Rabanan allow davening early on Erev Shabbos. Bahag is also mentioned there as allowing davening early because of "adding from Chol to Kodesh", although it is a matter of opinion if this is even according to the Rabanan.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner.
So if we say the ri is going according to the rabanan who allow to eat the friday night meal on erev shabbos, they must hold that we can do so from plag, which is why they allow it.
Therefore can ri also be like r. Tam but for a different reason, that he holds like a tana and r. Tam holds like r. Yehuda?
Shalom, Ronnie. I see that you've been having a lengthy discussion with Rabbi Weiner about the opinion of RI and whether or not he can agree to Rabeinu Tam (that we may Daven Ma'ariv from Plag). Here are my reflections on this matter, for what they are worth:
(a) It is evident from the words of Tosfos that the only reason the RI rejected Rabeinu Tam's view was because people Daven Minchah after Plag, and then they Daven Ma'ariv before Sheki'ah. If Plag is the dividing line between the time for Minchah and the time for Ma'ariv, this would be a "Tartei d'Sasrei"; if one can Daven Minchah during that time then he cannot Daven Ma'ariv during that same time period. For this reason, the RI is looking for another opinion which holds that the dividing line between the time for Minchah and the time for Ma'ariv is at some point between Plag and Sheki'ah.
In short, RI could not agree to Rabeinu Tam that one may Daven Ma'ariv at Plag, for that would return him to the Tartei d'Sasrei that he started with.
RI's solution is to find a new dividing line between Minchah and Ma'ariv, after Plag and before Sheki'ah. This he accomplishes by citing the opinion of Rebbi Meir ("When people eat Erev Shabbos") and Rebbi Eliezer ("When Shabbos enters"), who give a time for Keri'as Shema - and according to the Ri, for Ma'ariv - which precedes Sheki'ah but is long after Plag.
(b) You mentioned at various points in your discussion that perhaps the time of "When people eat Erev Shabbos" depends on each and every person; whenever he starts his meal, that is when he must say Keri'as Shema.
I find that hard to accept. We normally have a rule that "Im Ken Nasata Devarecha l'Shi'urin." This means that the Torah does not give each person a different Shiur for when or how much to do a Mitzvah. The Shiur must be a standard, in this case the time that most people normally begin their meals.
(c) You have a good point in your above comment. How can the time for eating the Friday night meal be the cut-off point between the time for Minchah and the time for Ma'ariv? If that would be so, then people would have to Daven Ma'ariv on Friday evening after eating their Shabbos meal - a situation which seems ludicrous.
Tosfos asks a question similar to yours (on 2b, DH mi'Sha'ah). He answers that the time for Keri'as Shema (and Ma'ariv as well, according to the RI), does not begin exactly as people sit down to eat. Rather, it begins when people start their preparations for eating. This answers your question. People would start preparing the Friday night meal, then Daven, and then eat their meal.
(d) Another point you had was that it seems strange for Ma'ariv to depend upon the time for eating meals. Because of this, you concluded that even the RI must mean that the time for Ma'ariv actually begins at Plag - since we find that Plag is indeed a time that is important with regard to the Tefilah of Ma'ariv.
It would appear to me that it is not so difficult to have the time for Ma'ariv depend upon the time of peoples' meals. In the Gemara, it is quite clear that the time for Keri'as Shema indeed depends upon the time of peoples' meals (according to Rebbi Meir). The reason for this is because Keri'as Shema depends upon "Zeman Shechivah," according to the Torah. People begin to prepare for sleeping ("Zeman Shechivah") with their evening meal. Therefore, when they begin the meal (or its preparations), is the beginning of "Zeman Shechivah," and the time for Keri'as Shema. I find that reasonable to accept.
The RI adds that the Rabanan instituted that the Tefilah of Ma'ariv should have the same criteria of Zeman as the Keri'as Shema of Ma'ariv. Therefore, Zeman Shechivah can determine the time for Tefilah as well as for Keri'as Shema. That is why the time for eating is the time for Davening Ma'ariv, according to the RI.
I hope this makes things a little clearer. Be well, and stay in touch!
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf
I am still uncertain by rosh kollel's answer below (a).
If you are explaining the R'I as saying maariv at a certain cutoff point between plag and shekiah you still would have the question of tosfos that you have two leniencies that are contradictory.
Plag:4:45pm
R-mier-seudat shabbat-5:45pm
Shekiah-6pm
Tzet-6:40 or 7:12pm.
how can you say mariv between 5:45 and 6pm when it is a time for mincha.
Please advise asap
Ronnie B.
The RI's point is that the time of Se'udah (according to Rebbi Meir) is a cutoff point between the time for Davening Minchah and the time for Davening Maariv. In your example, Rebbi Meir indeed will not allow a person to Daven Minchah after 5:45.
This is an acceptable Halachah according to the RI since people were not accustomed to Daven Minchah after 5:45. (They Davened Minchah between the time of Plag and the time of Se'udah.)
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf
I totally understand you answer and agree that the r'i and r'tam are arguing when the cut off point for Minchah is. R' Tam's cut off point is plag and and the R'I's cutoff point is sometime between plag and shekiyah. However, my question is of a different nature.
My Question is: Even according to the r'i who says that the cut off point for mincha is some time before shekiyah but some time way after plag, you still have the question of tosfos, that you have two leniencies that are contradictory. because let say shekia is at 6pm and the r'i's cut off point for mincha is 5:40pm (unlike r'tam whose cut off point is 4:45pm) you still have a contradiction that tosfos had on r'tam namely that 20 minutes between 5:40 and 6pm. On the one hand it is minchah according ot rabanan and it is mincha according to r'meir. so how is the r'i answering tosfos problem. I see the r's answer to r'eleizer whose cut off point is shekiah because then we have no contradictory times.
Please advise.
Thank you for you time.
Ronnie,
I understood Tosfos' question and answer somewhat differently from the way you present it. Let me make a few points.
(a) The contradicating Kulos are not that the Rabanan allow Minchah during the time that Rebbi Meir allows Maariv. That is an argument, not a contradication.
The contradiction is that in practice, we see that people Daven both Minchah and Maariv after Plag but before Sheki'ah. Presumably, the practice is based on a Halachic ruling that was passed by the Poskim of long ago (i.e. before Tosfos). The reason this ruling seems to include contradicting Kulos, according to Rabeinu Tam, is because there is no opinion that allows both Minchah and Maariv during that time slot; Rabanan only allow Minchah while Rebbi Yudah only allows Maariv.
The RI answers that there is indeed an opinion that allows both Minchah and Maariv during that time slot. That is Rebbi Meir (or Rebbi Eliezer). True, if people would be allowed to Daven Minchah after 5:40 (in your example) and not only Maariv, we would have contradictory Kulos. However, that is not allowed, and it is not the common practice either. The practice was Minchah shortly after Plag (before 5:40) and Maariv shortly before Sheki'ah (after 5:40).
(b) You imply that Rebbi Eliezer's "Kidesh ha'Yom" is identical to Sheki'ah. Tosfos cannot be understanding Rebbi Eliezer in such a manner, for Rebbi Eliezer would not allow Maariv before Sheki'ah - which was the common practice that the RI is defending. Rather, the RI understood that Rebbi Eliezer's time is shortly before Sheki'ah, sometime before the time that people Daven Maariv.
I hope that makes it clearer.
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf
(a) I think I understand somewhat your explanation of R'meir according to the R'I. Just need more time to think about it.
However, your explanation of R'Eliezer totally threw me off. I was under the impression that shekiya (sunset) is the cutoff point for Minchah and immediately after sunset (i.e. 6pm) one can say Maariv (being way before nightfall-6:42pm). However, from what you wrote below it seems that the cut off point is some time before shekiah but after r'mier's cut off point. According to r' meir, the cutoff point for mincha would be 5:40pm and for r'eliezer its 5:50pm (relative to shekiah being at 6pm). Why would that be his view when six pm is still a chidush ( 40 -45 minutes before nightall.)
(b) Also, I think i have another reason for R'tam's explanation and not a problem to tosfos. According to R'tam the cut of point for Mincha is 4:45pm (plag) and immediately after that time is Maariv. However according to R'Tam, Shekiah to him is not 6pm (during the equinox season) but 6:58:30pm, and 13.5 minutes later would be tzet. Thus Plag to him would be sometime around 6pm. Thus really the practice back then is accordance with halacha that held shekiah at 6pm.
Please advise,
thank you, Ronnie
(a) Thank you, you are probably correct.
(b) That is a very interesting point!
Be well,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf