More Discussions for this daf
1. Keri'as Shema - biblical or rabbinic? 2. Day and then night 3. Eating in the dark
4. Temimus 5. The posuk beshochbicha uvikumecha 6. Zman Krias Shma
7. earliest time to say Shema in the evening 8. Uva Hashemesh Vetaher 9. When does a poor man eat?
10. Be'arvin 11. What to read 12. The poor man's meal
13. Being Motzi another person with Shema 14. Eating korbanot until chatzot 15. The opposite of Tahor....
16. Sitting during Shema 17. Charts 18. When does Day Begin?
19. Does the Ri agree with the Yerushalmi 20. va'Yehi Erev va'Yehi Voker Yom Echad 21. Berachos 002: Shema
22. Kri'as Shema 23. To keep a person from Aveirah 24. Night or Day?
25. mi'Sha'ah sheha'Kohanim 26. Where do the Kohanim eat Terumah? 27. "reading" ; what about Kohanim?
28. Sof Zeman Shema 29. Second Answer of the Gemara 30. Zemanim
31. Rashi's Shitah for early Ma'ariv 32. Different Shitos in Shema 33. k'Sus ha'Zeh she'Eino Nirdam
34. Sunrise and Sunset 35. Translation of the Word "mi'Chi" 36. Tzeis or Bein ha'Shemashos
37. When do the Poor Eat? 38. The Gemara's Second Answer 39. Ashkenazi Keri'as Shema at Bedtime
40. Sunrise / Sunset 41. Iy Ba'is Eima 42. Which Shi'ur is earlier?
43. Zman Shema 44. When An Ani Eats His Bread 45. Rabeinu Tam in Tosfos
46. Is there a typo in the first Tosfos? 47. Times for Keri'as Shema 48. Tosfos and Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi
49. Codewords for Time of Earliest Kerias Shema 50. Me'eimasai 51. Korei vs Kor'in
52. Tzeis ha'Kochavim 53. Latest time 54. Time for saying Shema
55. בערבין 56. מתי אוכלים העניים 57. משעה שהעני אוכל פתו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 2

Yitzi Loewy asked:

Tosfos on 2a quotes the shittah of R"Y that after plag is laylah. What is R"Y's svara to say that it's laylah, it's still light outside?

Yitzi Loewy, USA

The Kollel replies:

It would seem that there are 2 questions here:

(1) How can you pray Ma'ariv when it is still light outside?

(2) How can you read the night Shema when it is still light outside?

(1) The Gemara (below 26b) states that Rebbi Yehudah maintains that one can only Daven Mincha until Plag because the evening Tamid sacrifice was only brought until Plag. Tosfos DH Ad writes that Rebbi Yehudah maintains that the prayers were instituted to correspond to when the incense was offered in the Beis ha'Mikdash as is said (Tehilim 141:2) "May my prayer be acceptable before You like incense; the lifting up of my hands for the evening offering". In fact the source for Tosfos' statement is the Talmud Yerushalmi 4:1 (p.60) which states that Minchah according to Rebbi Yehudah does not actually correspond to the Tamid but rather to the incense which was only burnt until 1 and 1/4 hours before nightfall. The Meleches Shlomo on the Mishnayos writes that it is not clear to him how Tosfos knows that the incense was only burnt until Plag. However he also writes that it may be that the "evening offering" mentioned in Tehilim refers to the Arvit night prayer. If we accept that the incense was only burnt up to Plag (see commentaries on Yerushalmi) it seems to me that this suggests that once the time of Minchah has finished it automatically follows that the time of the "evening offering" i.e. Arvit prayer, starts.

In short, since in the Beis Hamikdash the time of Arvit started at Plag, we also can say Arvit from Plag onwards according to Rebbi Yehudah even though it is somewhat light outside.

(2) The Torah commands us to read the Shema "when you lie down to sleep and when you arise" (Devarim 6:7). The Rishonim in our Sugya write that the time of reading Shema does not depend on night but rather on when people go to sleep (see the Shitah Mekubetzes 2b DH v'Inhu and the Meiri 2a DH ha'Mishnah and note 3 there). Tosfos 2a DH Me'eimasai cites Rabeinu Tam who maintains that the Halachah follows Rebbi Yehudah according to whom one does not have to say Shema again at home (unlike Rashi). Rabbeinu Tam maintains that Shekiyah is 72 minutes before Tzeis. Since Plag is 75 minutes before Tzeis this means that Plag is only 3 minutes before sunset. So it is not very light outside at all when he reads Shema. It is possible that since some people do go to sleep at this time (don't forget that before the invention of electricity people went to bed early), this can be compared to what Rebbi Yehoshua said in the Mishnah below (9b) that one can read Shema up to 3 hours into the morning because kings get up at this time. Similarly we follow the minority of people who go to bed after Plag, in order to term this "the time of lying in bed".

(However the Meiri 2a DH ha'Mishnah writes that before 3 medium stars come out noone goes to bed. It could be that Rabbeinu Tam disagrees with this and maintains that there are a minority of people who go to bed very shortly before sunset and this is sufficient to be called "the time of lying down". This matter requires further study).

KOL TUV

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