More Discussions for this daf
1. Keri'as Shema - biblical or rabbinic? 2. Day and then night 3. Eating in the dark
4. Temimus 5. The posuk beshochbicha uvikumecha 6. Zman Krias Shma
7. earliest time to say Shema in the evening 8. Uva Hashemesh Vetaher 9. When does a poor man eat?
10. Be'arvin 11. What to read 12. The poor man's meal
13. Being Motzi another person with Shema 14. Eating korbanot until chatzot 15. The opposite of Tahor....
16. Sitting during Shema 17. Charts 18. When does Day Begin?
19. Does the Ri agree with the Yerushalmi 20. va'Yehi Erev va'Yehi Voker Yom Echad 21. Berachos 002: Shema
22. Kri'as Shema 23. To keep a person from Aveirah 24. Night or Day?
25. mi'Sha'ah sheha'Kohanim 26. Where do the Kohanim eat Terumah? 27. "reading" ; what about Kohanim?
28. Sof Zeman Shema 29. Second Answer of the Gemara 30. Zemanim
31. Rashi's Shitah for early Ma'ariv 32. Different Shitos in Shema 33. k'Sus ha'Zeh she'Eino Nirdam
34. Sunrise and Sunset 35. Translation of the Word "mi'Chi" 36. Tzeis or Bein ha'Shemashos
37. When do the Poor Eat? 38. The Gemara's Second Answer 39. Ashkenazi Keri'as Shema at Bedtime
40. Sunrise / Sunset 41. Iy Ba'is Eima 42. Which Shi'ur is earlier?
43. Zman Shema 44. When An Ani Eats His Bread 45. Rabeinu Tam in Tosfos
46. Is there a typo in the first Tosfos? 47. Times for Keri'as Shema 48. Tosfos and Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi
49. Codewords for Time of Earliest Kerias Shema 50. Me'eimasai 51. Korei vs Kor'in
52. Tzeis ha'Kochavim 53. Latest time 54. Time for saying Shema
55. בערבין 56. מתי אוכלים העניים 57. משעה שהעני אוכל פתו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 2

Ariel Kopitnikoff asked:

On daf 2b in Berachos when the Gemara discusses the various opinions as to when the earliest time is to recite the Shma, one of the opinions is "when the poor person comes to eat his bread and salt." Rashi explains that since the man is poor he cant afford candles. The end result of the Gemara is that this time is after the Kohen is allowed to eat his trumah i.e. after the stars come out. My question is: If the poor man cant afford candles why is he starting his meal when its dark?

Ariel Kopitnikoff, Elizabeth NJ

The Kollel replies:

Even more than others, the poor man makes it his business to use every waking moment to work for his bread. He cannot stop to eat until it gets too dark to work. Nevertheless, he does try to eat earlier than others, when there is still some light outside (i.e. immediately after Tzeis ha'Kochachavim) because he cannot afford candles.

(This explanation is in keeping with our notes in the Girsa section of the Background to the Daf [copied below], and not with the Girsa of the Maharsha referred to in the above-mentioned notes, who maintains that a poor man eats later than others. See also our Charts to Daf 2b [copied below].)

M. Kornfeld

FROM GIRSA SECTION TO BERACHOS 2B:

[4] Rashi 2b DH Nichnasin and DH v'Hai Minaihu Me'uchar:

"l'Chulam ... l'Chulam"

The words of Rashi, that the time of "Bnei Adam Ochlim" is the latest of all, and that the time of "Ani Ochel" is the latest of all, are contradictory (as all the Acharonim point out). To solve this problem, the Maharsha erases the word "l'Chulam" from the first Dibur, since he is of the opinion that the time of "Ani Ochel" is later the time of "Bnei Adam Ochlim", even during the week.

The Acharonim (Nachalas David, see also Yefei Einayim; [from the marginal note printed in the Gemara, it would seem that the Maharshal also argues with the Maharsha; however, I have not found this in our editions of the Maharshal]) prove from the words of the Gemara that this cannot be true. It is also apparent from the Tosfos ha'Rosh (DH Rav Achai) that he had the Girsa "l'Chulam" in the first Rashi, and it is likewise evident from Rashi 3a DH Kashya d'Rebbi Meir and 2b DH mishehe'Ani, that the time of "Bnei Adam Ochlim" is later than the time of "Ani Ochel" and the time of "Kohanim Nichnasim."

FROM CHARTS TO BERACHOS 2B:

Berachos Chart #1

Daf 2b

                  ___________________________________________             
                                                                          
                  FROM WHAT TIME MAY ONE READ SHEMA AT NIGHT?             
                  ___________________________________________             
                                                                          
          (A)                                (B)                          
        TANA'IM                TIMES, FROM  EARLIEST  TO  LATEST          
        _______                __________________________________         
                                                                          
1) REBBI MEIR OF THE           When people eat their meal Friday night    
   FIRST  BERAISA              (according to RI)(1)                       
   AND REBBI ACHA OF                                                      
   THE LAST                                                               
   (according to RI)                                                      
                                                                          
2) REBBI ELIEZER OF THE        When Shabbos begins(2)                     
   BERAISA                                                                
                                                                          
3) REBBI MEIR OF THE           Slightly before three stars appear(3)      
   SECOND  BERAISA             ("when Kohanim immerse to eat Terumah")    
                                                                          
4) MISHNAH 2a, AND             When three stars appear                    
   REBBI YEHOSHUA OF THE       (and Kohanim may eat their Terumah)        
   BERAISA(4)                                                             
                                                                          
5) REBBI CHANINA OF THE        When a poor man prepares(5) to eat his     
   BERAISA                     evening meal(6)                            
  (and also REBBI MEIR         (which is when people eat on Friday night, 
   of the  first  Beraisa,     according to TOSFOS(7) and TOSFOS HA'ROSH) 
   according to TOSFOS DH                                                 
   v'Iy(7) and TOSFOS                                                     
   HA'ROSH DH Rebbi Achai)                                                
                                                                          
6a)REBBI ACHA OF THE           When people eat their meal Friday night(8) 
   BERAISA (according to                                                  
   RASHI 2b DH Nichnasim                                                  
   in his second approach)                                                
                                                                          
6b)REBBI ACHA OF THE           When people eat their weekday evening      
   BERAISA (according to       meal(9)                                    
   RASHI's first approach                                                 
   in DH Nichnasim, and                                                   
   according to TOSFOS                                                    
   DH v'Iy(7) and the                                                     
   TOSFOS HA'ROSH)(10)                                                    

FOOTNOTES-

(1) Tosfos 2a, DH me'Eimasai, cites the Ri who asserts that this is the earliest of all the times. This is not the way Tosfos 2b, DH v'Iy and Tosfos 3a DH Kashy d'Rebbi Meir seem to understand. The Ri will have to explain that Rav Acha, in the Beraisa on 2b, is referring to the time that people eat on Erev Shabbos , and not during the week, because otherwise the question of Tosfos 3a DH Kasha d'Rebbi Meir will still remain. The question of Tosfos 2b, DH v'Iy may be answered according to the Ri following the approach of Rav Hai Ga'on, mentioned in Tosfos ha'Rosh ad loc. (See footnote (7) for an explanation of the answer of Tosfos DH v'Iy.)

(2) That is, at sunset, which is the beginning of Rebbi Yehudah's Bein ha'Shemashos and precedes Tzeis ha'Kochavim by a little more than the time it takes to walk half a Mil. (Rebbi Eliezer's sunset is not the blink of an eye before Tzeis ha'Kochavim, as Tosfos proves on Daf 3a, DH Kasha d'Rebbi Eliezer.)

(3) That is, a little before Rebbi Yosi's Bein ha'Shemashos. It is still considered daytime and the Kohanim immerse at that time in order to be able to eat Terumah after dark.

(4) Although the Mishnah uses the word "Nichnasim" and Rebbi Yehoshua uses the word "Metoharim," Tosfos (3a, DH Kasha d'Rebbi Eliezer) appears to equate the two. (In Dikdukei Sofrim #50, the Girsa is "sheha'Kohanim Tehorim Nichnasim Le'echol...")

(5) That is, when he prepares his meal, and not when he eats it, because he may not eat before reciting the Shema, as the Gemara says later on Daf 3b (Tosfos DH mi'Sha'ah).

(6) This is later than Tzeis ha'Kochavim, as the Gemara (2b) explains. With regard to Rashi's statement, according to the Girsa of the Maharsha, that this time is the latest "of all of them," we have already cited (see the Girsa section of the Background pages) Acharonim who prove in a number of ways, that the proper Girsa is not that of the Maharsha. Rather, the phrase "of all of them" ought to appear only in the previous gloss of Rashi. Its reappearance in the next Rashi is incorrect and it should be deleted from there. This seems to have been the Girsa of the Tosfos ha'Rosh and Rishonim as well.

(7) The words of Tosfos DH v'Iy (Daf 2b) are not fully clear (see the Maharsha and the Achronim who give unlikely explanations for Tosfos). However, from the Tosfos ha'Rosh it is clear that his intention is to explain that if the time when a poor person comes in to eat his meal is after Tzeis ha'Kochavim, then that time and the time when all other people eat on Friday night are one and the same. Therefore, we will have solved the problem of having so many different opinions as to when one may begin to read the Shema. According to the explanation of Tosfos and the Rosh, it must be concluded that Rebbi Acha of the Beraisa is referring to the time when people come in to eat on a weeknight , and not on an Erev Shabbos.

(8) This is later than the time that a poor person eats, according to the Girsa we have favored in Rashi (not like the Girsa of the Maharsha, see footnote (6)).

(9) This must be later than the time that a poor person eats, because according to Tosfos and Tosfos ha'Rosh, the time that a poor person eats and the time that people eat on Friday night are one and the same. On weekday nights, it is clear that people eat later than they do on Friday night.

(10) According to the second explanation in Rashi earlier (2b, in the words of Rebbi Acha; see (6A) in chart), and also according to the Ri in Tosfos 2a (see (1A) in chart), this time is not mentioned in the Gemara or in the Beraisa at all. According to Tosfos and the Rosh, the time of people eating on Friday night is not a separate time of its own, but it is the time that the poor person eats. Thus, according to all of the Rishonim we have mentioned there are but six opinions in our Sugya as to when one may begin to read Shema in the evenings.