Question: What is R. Shimon's source that goats of the Mo'adim atone for (Tum'ah of the Mikdash or Kodshim) that was not known at the beginning nor at the end?

Answer: He learns like R. Chama b'Rebbi Chanina taught;

(R. Chama b'Rebbi Chanina): It says about the goats of the Mo'adim "u'Se'ir." The extra 'Vov' equates it to the previous matter (the goat of Rosh Chodesh).

Just like the goat of Rosh Chodesh atones for a matter of Kodshim, also the goats of the Mo'adim.

Suggestion: Perhaps they atone for the same thing as the goat of Rosh Chodesh!

Rejection: It says about the goat of Rosh Chodesh "Osah" - only the goat bears this sin.

Suggestion: Perhaps they atone for the same thing as the outer goat of Yom Kipur!

Rejection: "Achas b'Shanah" teaches that the atonement of the outer goat comes only once a year.

Question: What knowledge was there about the Chata'im it atones for?

If he knew at the beginning and at the end, he must bring a Korban!

If he knew at the beginning but not at the end, the inner goat and Yom Kipur suspend punishment for this!

If he knew at the end but not at the beginning, the outer goat and Yom Kipur atone for this!

Answer: We must say that he did not know at the beginning nor at the end.

(Mishnah): R. Meir says, all the goats (of Rosh Chodesh, the Mo'adim and Yom Kipur) atone for the same things (a Tamei person who entered the Mikdash or ate Kodshim, or a Tahor person who ate Tamei Kodshim).

Question (R. Chama b'Rebbi Chanina): What is R. Meir's reason?

Answer #1 (R. Chama): It says about the goats of the Mo'adim "u'Se'ir." The extra 'Vov' equates it to the previous matter.

We are thinking that (the first is learned from Rosh Chodesh, and) each (other) is learned from the previous one. (Parshas Pinchas lists the Korbanos brought on Rosh Chodesh and the Mo'adim.)

Question: R. Yochanan taught a general rule, that if matter B was learned from matter A, B can teach about other matters, in all areas of Torah except Kodshim!

Answer: Rather, everything is learned from one source (we learn each Mo'ed directly from Rosh Chodesh).

Objection: Regarding Shavu'os and Yom Kipur it says "Se'ir", and not ''u'Se'ir'. How can we learn these?

Answer #2 (R. Yonah): Rather, "Eleh Ta'asu la'Shem b'Mo'adeichem" equates all the Mo'adim.

Question: Rosh Chodesh is not a Mo'ed!

Answer: Indeed, a verse calls it Mo'ed!

(Abaye): "Kara Alai Mo'ed" - Tamuz (when the Meraglim toured Eretz Yisrael) was a full month of 30 days. This caused them to return (after 40 days) before the eve of the ninth of Av.

(R. Yochanan): R. Meir admits that the inner goat of Yom Kipur does not atone for what these goats atone for, and vice-versa.

The inner goat of Yom Kipur does not atone for what the others do. "V'Chiper... Achas" teaches that it makes only one atonement;

The others do not atone for what the inner goat atones for. "Achas b'Shanah" teaches that the atonement of the inner goat comes only once a year.

Support (Beraisa - R. Meir): The goats of Rosh Chodesh, the Mo'adim and the outer goat of Yom Kipur atone for a Tamei person who entered the Mikdash or ate Kodshim if he did not know at the beginning (whether or not he later found out), and for a Tahor person who ate Tamei Kodshim;

The Beraisa omits the inner goat, and what it atones for (if he knew at the beginning but not at the end).

(Mishnah - R. Shimon): The goat of Rosh Chodesh atones for a Tahor person who ate Tamei Kodshim...

We understand why it does not atone for what the goats of the Mo'adim atone for. "Avon (singular)" connotes that the goat bears only one sin, and not two.

Question: Why don't the goats of the Mo'adim atone for what the goat of Rosh Chodesh atones for?

Answer: It says about the goat of Rosh Chodesh "Osah (it)." Only the goat bears this sin.

We understand why the goats of the Mo'adim do not atone for what the outer goat of Yom Kipur atones for. "Achas b'Shanah" teaches that the atonement comes only once a year.

Question: Why doesn't the outer goat atone for what the goats of the Mo'adim do?

Answer: "V'Chiper... Achas" teaches that it makes only one atonement.

Question: That verse is written about the inner goat!

Answer: "Milvad Chatas ha'Kipurim" equates the inner and outer goats.

(R. Shimon ben Yehudah citing R. Shimon): (The goats of Rosh Chodesh atone for a Tahor person who ate Tamei Kodshim. The goats of the Mo'adim atone for this, and also for Tum'ah (of the Mikdash or Kodshim) that was never known. The outer goat atones for both of these, and also for Tum'ah that is known only at the end.)

Question: Presumably, he learns that the goat of Rosh Chodesh does not make the atonement of the goats of the Mo'adim from "Avon". The goat only bears one sin, and not two;

He should likewise say that the goats of the Mo'adim do not atone for what the goat of Rosh Chodesh atones for. "Osah" teaches that only the goat bears this sin!

Answer: He does not expound "Osah" this way.

Question: Presumably, he learns that the goats of the Mo'adim do not make the atonement of the outer goat from "Achas b'Shanah" - the atonement only comes once a year.

He should likewise say that the outer goat does not atone for what the goats of the Mo'adim do. "V'Chiper... Achas" connotes that it makes only one atonement!

Answer #1: He does not expound "v'Chiper... Achas" this way.

Question: Presumably, this is because that verse is written about the inner goat;

Also "Achas b'Shanah" is written about the inner goat, yet he applies it to the outer goat!

Answer #2: Really, he expounds "v'Chiper... Achas";

"V'Chiper... Al Karnosav Achas" teaches that the atonement on its (the inner Altar's) corners makes only one atonement, but the atonement on the outer Altar makes more than one atonement.

(Ula): (Starting in Nisan, Korbanos Tzibur must be bought from the Shekalim collected for the coming year.) When Nisan comes, remaining lambs bought for the Tamid (daily offering) are redeemed Tam (without a blemish).

Question (Rav Chisda): Did the Kedushah vanish? (Why can they be redeemed Tam?!)

Counter-question (Rabah): How can you argue? A Mishnah teaches this!

(Mishnah): We redeem extra Ketores (incense) (that was not used before Nisan) on money owed to those who made it. We give the Ketores to the workers, and buy it back using the new Shekalim.

Answer (Rav Chisda): Ketores has only monetary Kedushah, therefore its Kedushah vanishes.