PESACHIM 27 (10 Av) - Dedicated by Mrs. Gitti Kornfeld in memory of her father, Reb Yisrael Shimon ben Shlomo ha'Levi Turkel, whose Yahrzeit is on 10 Av.

1)

WHO FORBIDS ZEH V'ZEH GOREM?

(a)

Rejection: Perhaps R. Eliezer attributes the result to the final Gorem, whether or not the Isur was not removed, unlike Abaye - he permits [Zeh v'Zeh Gorem, as long as the Isur did not fall in last, even] if they fell in at the same time!

(b)

Answer #2 (Mishnah): Wood from an Asheirah is Asur b'Hana'ah;

1.

If it was used to heat a new oven, it must be destroyed; if it was used to heat an old oven, it must cool down;

2.

If one baked in it [before it cooled down], the bread is forbidden; if the bread became mixed with other bread, it is forbidden to benefit from any of them;

3.

R. Eliezer says, he takes the amount he benefited (Rashi - the cost of [Heter] wood of the amount of Asheirah wood he used; Tosfos (Avodah Zarah) - the value of the bread) and throws it in the sea, then he may benefit (Ra'avad on the Rif - but not eat; Ri (in Avodah Zarah) - or even eat) from all of them.

4.

Chachamim: One cannot redeem [something forbidden on account of] idolatry! (Really, these Chachamim also forbid Zeh v'Zeh Gorem - we do not know who they are, so we just say that R. Eliezer forbids it.)

(c)

Question: Perhaps R. Eliezer forbids Zeh v'Zeh Gorem only regarding idolatry, which is stringent - he did not say so regarding other Isurim!

(d)

Answer #1: If he does not say so regarding other Isurim, who is the Tana of Beraisa #1 above?!

(e)

Answer #2 (Beraisa): R. Eliezer similarly forbids [Zeh v'Zeh Gorem] regarding all Isurim.

(f)

(Abaye): If the first Tana of Beraisa #1 forbids Zeh v'Zeh Gorem, Rebbi holds like R. Eliezer;

1.

If he permits Zeh v'Zeh Gorem, Rebbi forbids the bread because Yesh Shevach Etzim b'Pas - bowls, cups and plates [made in a kiln heated with forbidden wood] are forbidden (there is Shevach Etzim inside, and they are used without a Gorem of Heter).

2.

Version #1: They argue about ovens and pots - they are forbidden according to the opinion that forbids Zeh v'Zeh Gorem.

3.

Version #2: All agree that a pot is forbidden, for it holds food before cooking [at the time it is the only Gorem].

2)

SHEVACH ETZIM

(a)

(Rav Yosef citing Shmuel): If an oven was heated with peels of Orlah or straw of Kil'ai ha'Kerem:

1.

If it is a new oven, it must be destroyed; if it is an old oven, one must let it cool down;

2.

If one baked in it [while it was still hot], Rebbi permits the bread, and Chachamim forbid.

(b)

Question: This is the opposite of Beraisa #1 (Rebbi forbids, and Chachamim permit)!

(c)

Answer #1: This was Shmuel's text of Beraisa #1 [unlike our text];

(d)

Answer #2: Shmuel holds that [normally] the Halachah follows Rebbi against one colleague, but not against many - here, the Halachah follows Rebbi against Chachamim - therefore, Shmuel intentionally switched the opinions in order that people [who assume that the Halachah follows Chachamim] will forbid.

(e)

(Beraisa #1): If one cooked on top of coals, all permit the bread.

(f)

(Rav Yehudah or R. Chiya bar Ashi): This is only if the coals were dimming (we say that the Isur has changed form, they are permitted) - but if they were glowing (they are like the wood itself), they are forbidden [and Rebbi forbids the bread];

(g)

(The other of Rav Yehudah and R. Chiya bar Ashi): Even if the coals were glowing, they are permitted.

(h)

Question: According to the first opinion, we understand when Rebbi forbids the bread - but according to the second opinion, Rebbi permits even glowing coals - when does he forbid bread on account of Shevach Etzim b'Pas?

(i)

Answer (Rav Papa): The case is, the bread baked by the flame [while the wood was intact].

27b----------------------------------------27b

(j)

Question: This implies that Chachamim permit even bread baked by a flame - if so, what Isur applies to wood?!

(k)

Answer (R. Ami bar Chama): It is forbidden to make a stool [or other Kelim] from them.

(l)

Question (Rami bar Chama): If an oven was heated with Hekdesh wood and used to bake bread, what would Chachamim [who permit bread baked using Orlah and Kil'ai ha'Kerem] say?

(m)

Answer (Rav Chisda): Chachamim forbid.

(n)

Question #1 (Rami bar Chama): What is the difference between Hekdesh and Orlah?

(o)

Answer (Rava): This is not difficult - [one volume of] Orlah is Batel in 200 times its volume of Heter, but Hekdesh is not Batel even in 1000.

(p)

Question #2 (Rava): The one who lit the wood was Mo'el - this causes the wood to become Chulin [therefore the bread should be permitted]!

(q)

Answer (Rav Papa): The case is, it is wood of a Shelamim, and according to R. Yehudah, who says that Hekdesh becomes Chulin only b'Shogeg, not b'Mezid:

1.

It does not become Chulin b'Mezid because Me'ilah does not apply - likewise, Me'ilah does not apply to Shelamim (it is considered to be [primarily] destined to be consumed by the owner), so it does not become Chulin.

(r)

Question: The wood does not become Chulin whenever the one who lit it was Mo'el!

1.

(Beraisa): Ashes of all Nisrafim (Isurei Hana'ah that must be burned) are permitted, except for those of an Asheirah;

2.

[There is another exception,] ashes of Hekdesh are always forbidden.

(s)

Answer #1 (Rami bar Chama): The case is, Hekdesh caught fire by itself. (Had someone burned it, he would transgress Me'ilah, the Hekdesh would become Chulin.)

(t)

Answer #2 (Rav Shemayah): The Beraisa refers to Terumas ha'Deshen, which requires Genizah (no Me'ilah was done to it):

1.

(Beraisa): "V'Samo" - all the ashes must be placed down, gently, so they will not scatter.

3)

MUST CHAMETZ BE BURNED?

(a)

(Mishnah - R. Yehudah): The only way to fulfill Bi'ur is through burning;

(b)

(Beraisa - R. Yehudah): A Kal va'Chomer mandates burning to fulfill Bi'ur;

1.

Bal Yera'eh and Bal Yimatzei do not apply to Nosar, yet Nosar must be burned - they apply to Chametz, all the more so burning should be required!

(c)

Chachamim: You cannot make a Kal va'Chomer if the stringency leads to a leniency!

1.

If someone has no wood [to burn Chametz], you exempt him from destroying it - but it says "Tashbisu Se'or mi'Bateichem" - any way you can destroy it!

(d)

R. Yehudah: I can learn differently [from Mah Matzinu (precedent); Rashash - Rashi does not literally mean a Gezeirah Shavah]:

1.

It is Asur to eat Chametz, just like Nosar - just like Nosar must be burned, also Chametz.

(e)

Chachamim: Neveilah disproves this - one may not eat it, yet it need not be burned!

(f)

R. Yehudah: These are different! It is Asur to eat or benefit from Chametz, just like Nosar - just like Nosar must be burned, also Chametz [but one may benefit from Neveilah]!

(g)

Chachamim: Shor ha'Niskal disproves this - one may not eat or benefit from it, yet it need not be burned!

(h)

R. Yehudah: These are different! Chametz is Asur b'Hana'ah and there is Kares for eating it, just like Nosar - just like Nosar must be burned, also Chametz [but there is no Kares for Shor ha'Niskal]!

(i)

Chachamim: Chelev of Shor ha'Niskal disproves this - it is Asur b'Hana'ah and there is Kares for eating it, yet it need not be burned!

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