More Discussions for this daf
1. Problem with calculation on bottom of 5b 2. The Aron 3. Tosfos Misgarto
4. The Machlokes Rav Yehuda and Rav Meir: Conversion of Amos to Tefachim 5. 10 Tefachim 6. Kosher Sukah on Shabbos
7. Ten Tefachim 8. Inscription on the Tzitz 9. Minimum Height for a Sukah
10. Height of Kapores 11. Tafasta Merubah Lo Tafasta
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SUKAH 5

Benjamin Horne asks:

Dear Rabbi,

On Sukah daf 5, we learn the minimum height of ten tefachim for a sukah from the Aron and Kapores and then we learn that this means that the Shechinah does not go down lower than 10 tefachim. I was wondering, what is the rationale from using a proof for Suakh from the Aron? It seems to be a random connection.

Benjamin Horne, London, UK

The Kollel replies:

Benjamin, this is a very important question and I think that the Pnei Yehoshua was also concerned about this difficulty!

1) In fact, it would seem that there is a much better reason that could be given for why a Sukah must be at least 10 Tefachim (80 centimetres, according to Rav Chaim Naeh). Actually, the Gemara itself gives this reason on 4a, namely that if it is so low it is considered a "Dirah Seruchah" -- a repulsive dwelling place. It should be obvious that such a tiny area is not worthy of being called even a temporary home.

2) The Pnei Yehoshua answers that indeed it is logical (a "Sevara") that a Sukah under 10 Tefachim is disqualified. The main reason why we need to learn from the Aron and Kapores is to derive that the minimum height of a Mechitzah required to comprise a private domain on Shabbos is 10 Tefachim. Just for the sake of example, if there is a post box in Oxford Circus (which is a public domain) and somebody put a letter inside on Shabbos, this would be a Torah prohibition if the height of the mail box was 10 Tefachim because it would then be considered a private domain.

3) The Pnei Yehoshua claims that this might be what the last Tosfos on 4b means when he writes that the fact that a partition in the context of the laws of Shabbos must be 10 Tefachim is also derived from the Aron and Kapores. The fact that Tosfos mentions the Halachos of Shabbos, even though the latter are not mentioned by the Gemara in this Sugya, suggests that the Limud from Aron and Kapores is just as important for Shabbos as it is for Sukah.

4) The Pnei Yehoshua cites support for his contention from the Bartenura on the first Mishnah in the Masechta who writes that the reason why a Sukah lower than 10 Tefachim is invalid is that it is a Dirah Seruchah. Since the Gemara derives it from Aron and Kapores, why does the Bartenura give a different reason ("the disgusting dwelling place")? The answer is that the source of Aron and Kapores is necessary as a source in general for the law that a Mechitzah requires 10 Tefachim, while the fact that a standard Sukah is invalid if it is less than 10 Tefachim high is obvious.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom