We query what we just learned with a Mishnah in Ma'asros, where in a case where someone adds three measures of water to dregs of wine and three measures emerge, the Tana Kama rules that one is Patur from Ma'asros, and Rebbi Yehudah - obligates him.

We initially extrapolate from there that if three and a half measures were to emerge - the Tana Kama would concede that he is Chayav.

This poses a Kashya on what we just learned (that the Rabbanan do not consider 'Yoser mi'Chedei Midaso' wine with regard to the B'rachah). We cannot answer that the Rabbanan only consider it wine with regard to Ma'aser (like we explained earlier in the opinion of Rebbi Yehudah by 'K'dei Midaso') - because we see from their opinion by K'dei Midaso that they are not more strict with regard to Ma'aser than with regard to the B'rachah (see Maharsha and Toras Chayim).

We therefore we resolve the discrepancy - by refuting the above inference, because in fact, they argue with Rebbi Yehudah even by Yoser mi'Chedei Midaso ...

... and the reason that Rebbi chose to present the Machlokes specifically by K'dei Midaso is to teach us the extent of Rebbi Yehudah's opinion.

Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak asked Rav Chiya bar Avin what one would consider dregs which have the taste of wine - with regard to the B'rachah, in a case of Yoser mi'Chedei Midaso.

He did not cite the Beraisa of Acherim (either to rule like him or not) - because he had not seen it.

Rav Chiya bar Avin replied - that it is not wine, but merely acid (like the Rabbanan).

The Beraisa discusses dregs of Terumah, Ma'aser Sheini and Hekdesh to which one added water. The Tana Kama forbids the dregs of ...

... Terumah wine to be drunk by a Zar (a non-Kohen) - up to two times. The third time is permitted.

... Ma'aser Sheini wine to be eaten outside Yerushalayim - only the first time. The second time it is already permitted.

... Hekdesh wine to be drunk by anybody - up to three times. The fourth time it is permitted.

Provided the dregs still give a taste of wine, Rebbi Meir forbids ...

... Terumah - even after the third time.

... Ma'aser Sheini - even after the second time.

... Hekdesh - even after the fourth time.

The Tana'im are arguing over a case where they three measures of water were added, and three measures emerged from the dregs (see Maharsha).

These Halachos are all - a Chumra mi'de'Rabbanan. By Torah law, all cases of K'dei Midaso have a Din of water.

Another Beraisa rules that dregs ...

... of Hekdesh - are always forbidden (even the fourth time).

... of Ma'aser - are always permitted (even the first time).

To reconcile the two Beraisos, we answer the discrepancy between ...

... Hekdesh and Hekdesh - by establishing the second Beraisa by Kedushas ha'Guf (such as wine for the Nesachim), whereas the first Beraisa is speaking about Kedushas Damim (which stands to be redeemed and which is therefore less stringent).

... Ma'aser and Ma'aser - by establishing the second Beraisa by Ma'aser of D'mai (that one Ma'asered from what one purchased from an Am ha'Aretz, whereas the first Beraisa is speaking about regular Ma'aser (which is more stringent).

The statement of Rebbi Yochanan quoting Rebbi Shimon ben Yehotzadak, that all the above rulings extend to the Din of Hechsher is strange - because both water and wine are included in the seven liquids that are Machshir food (render it eligible by having touched it) to receive Tum'ah (so it ought to make no difference whether the dregs are considered wine or water regarding Hechsher).

We learn from the Pasuk in "Tishteh Chamer" - that wine is considered a beverage in this regard.

We answer the Kashya by establishing Rebbi Yochanan where the water that one added (to the dregs of Terumah, Ma'aser or Hekdesh) was rain-water - which requires Machshavah (that he is pleased with it) before it is fit to be Machshir, and we are speaking about a case where the owner thought about the wine (when he pressed the grapes - see Rashash), but not about the water.

This answer is insufficient however - inasmuch as drawing the water from the dregs constitutes Machshavah.

Rav Papa finally establishes the case when a cow drank each batch of water as it emerged and where some of it fell from the cow's mouth on to food - see Me'iri) - in which case the owner did not get a chance to express satisfaction at the fact that the water fell into the dregs in the first place.

We could not have established it there where each batch of water that emerged spilled immediately - because how would we then be able to distinguish between the different batches (see also Ritva).

When Rav Zutra bar Tuvyah declares that wine that is not fit to go on the Mizbe'ach may not be used for Kidush, he is referring to - wine over which one recites 'Borei P'ri ha'Gafen'.

The reason for the prohibition is - based on the Pasuk in Mal'achi "Hakrivehu Na le'Pechasecha, ha'Yirtz'cha ... " ('Bring it to your prince, would he accept it ... ?'), and if you would not bring it your prince, you should not offer to Hash-m either.

We learn from the Pasuk in Pinchas (in connection with the Nesachim) "Hasech Nesech Sheichar la'Hashem" - that wine that is used for Nesachim should be able to intoxicate.

This does not mean that wine straight from the vat may not be used for Kidush - because in fact, Bedieved, it is even Kasher for Nesachim (and therefore eligible for Kidush even Lechatchilah).

Rava declares - that one is even permitted to squeeze a bunch of grapes and use the juice for Kidush.

Neither did Rav Zutra bar Tuvyah come to preclude from Kidush, wine ...

... from the top or the bottom of the barrel (which should also not be used for Nesachim) - because Rebbi Chiya quotes a Beraisa that permits them even for Nesachim, Bedi'eved.

... black or 'Borek' (very white wine), wine that is very sweet, weak wine, wine from the cellar (which contains barrels of Kos'sos [inferior-quality wine that is sold in the stores that will never mature, but will turn into vinegar]) and raisin wine - all of which Bedieved are also eligible for Nesachim, as we learned in a Beraisa.

The Beraisa rules - that Yayin Koseis, wine that has been diluted or left uncovered, Temed and wine that smells like vinegar but tastes like wine - is not eligible for Nesachim, even Bedi'eved.

Nevertheless, the previous Beraisa declared Yayin shel Martef eligible Bedi'eved, despite the fact that some of the barrels are Kos'sos - because each barrel that is used is only a Safek (and what's more, only one in ten barrels is Koseis).

Rav Zutra bar Tuvya cannot be coming to disqualify (from Kidush) ...

... Yayin Koseis, because that is a Machlokes between Rebbi Yochanan and Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi. Consequently, if he held like ...

... Rebbi Yochanan - he should rather have presented the Halachah that one recites 'ha'Gafen' (in which case it follows that one would also recite Kidush over it).

... Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi, then he should have issued the ruling that one only recites 'Shehakol' (and it would be obvious that one cannot recite Kidush over it).

Neither can he can be coming to disqualify ...

... diluted wine - because in fact, diluting the wine improves it (as we will see shortly).

... uncovered wine - because (due to the fact that a snake may have drunk from it, leaving its poison inside) it is dangerous, and forbidden to drink anyway.

Nor can he be coming to disqualify 'dregs' - because if one added three measures and ...

... four emerged - then is proper wine according to all opinions.

... three emerged - it is not considered wine according to anybody.

... three and a half emerged - we nevertheless rule like the Rabbanan that one does not even recite 'Borei P'ri ha'Gafen' over it (let alone use it for Kidush).

Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Chanina declares - that even the Rabbanan, who disqualify diluted wine for Nesachim, will concede to Rebbi Eliezer (who validates it) - that for Birchas ha'Mazon, one may only use a cup of wine that has been diluted.

Rav Zutra bar Tuvya comes to disqualify (from using for Kidush) - wine with a foul smell.

Alternatively, he might be coming to disqualify uncovered wine - and he is speaking in a case where he put the wine through a strainer, like Rebbi Nechemyah - who then permits it to be drunk ...

... but nevertheless disqualifies it from being used for Kidush - because of the Pasuk "Hakrivehu Na le'Pechasecha", (as we explained above with regard to Nesachim).

Rav Kahana the father-in-law of Rav Mesharshaya, asked Rava about using very white wine for Nesachim. He did not know this from 'Borek', which the Beraisa that we quoted above, permitted Bedi'eved - because he had not seen the Beraisa (see also Tosfos DH 'Chamar').

When Rava replied with the Pasuk in Mishlei "Al Teire Yayin ki Yis'adam" - which means "Do not drink red wine because it intoxicates (more than white wine).

And what he meant to prove by citing it was that - based on the Pasuk ("Hasech Nesech Sheichar la'Hashem") that we quoted earlier, it stands to reason that if possible, red wine should be used for the Nesachim.

When the Beraisa writes (with reference to our Mishnah 'Kankanim be'Sharon, Mekabel alav Eser Pit'sos le'Me'ah') 'Pit'sos Na'os u'Megufaros' the Tana means - that 'Pit'sos' are (not broken, unusable barrels, of which even one would be prohibited to give the purchaser, but) good barrels that broke but were patched up with a layer of pitch.

Rabeinu Chananel has a text 'Tana, Yeser al Kein be'Chulan Machzir es ha'Sha'ar ve'Notel es ha'Damim Mimenu', which means that - if the purchaser found more than ten barrels of Kos'sos or Pit'sos, the seller is obligated to reimburse him for the balance (but not for the ten).

This does not clash with Rav Huna, who learned earlier that once the seller pays for the excess of a Rova, he has to pay him for the entire Rova - because the reasons of that ruling (of the seller having deliberately mixed them or because it is no trouble for the purchaser to remove the Rova as well) are not applicable here.