TEMED (cont.) [last line on previous Amud]
Question: Is it really true that they argue about when more came out than was put in?!
(Mishnah): If one put water on dregs, and the same volume came out, it is exempt from Ma'aseros;
R. Yehudah obligates.
They argue only about when the same volume came out. If more came out, all obligate to take Ma'aseros!
Answer: Really, they argue even about when more came out. The Beraisa discusses the case when the same volume came out to teach the extremity of R. Yehudah's opinion.
Question (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): What is the blessing on dregs that have the taste of wine?
Answer (R. Chiya bar Avin): (It is sheha'Kol.) It is not wine. It is a mere taste.
(Beraisa #1): The first and second times that one puts water on dregs of Terumah wine, what come out is forbidden (like Terumah). The third time, it is permitted (like Chulin);
R. Meir says, even the third is forbidden if it tastes like wine.
If one puts water on dregs of Ma'aser wine, (what comes out) the first time is forbidden (like Ma'aser, and the second time is permitted;
R. Meir says, even the second is forbidden if it tastes like wine.
If one puts water on dregs of Hekdesh, the first three times are forbidden. The fourth time, it is permitted;
R. Meir says, even the fourth is forbidden if it tastes like wine.
Contradiction (Beraisa #2): Dregs of Hekdesh are always forbidden. Dregs of Ma'aser are always permitted.
Beraisa #1 says that the dregs are sometimes forbidden and sometimes permitted regarding Hekdesh and Ma'aser!
Answer (part 1, regarding Hekdesh): Regarding Kedushas ha'Guf (something that is itself offered in the Mikdash, e.g. wine for Nesachim), the dregs are always forbidden. Regarding Kedushas Damim (their value is Hekdesh), only the first three times are forbidden.
Answer (part 2, regarding Ma'aser): Regarding definite Ma'aser, the first time is forbidden. Regarding Ma'aser of Demai (Safek Tevel, i.e. perhaps it was already tithed and the Ma'aser is really Chulin), it is always permitted.
(R. Yochanan): The law of Hechsher (food can become Tamei only after a liquid was put on it) is the same as the law of when the dregs are forbidden.
Question: Which Hechsher does he address?
Neither water nor wine needs any Hechsher!
Answer: The case is, he put rainwater on the dregs. (Rainwater that was not willfully collected is not Machshir for Kabalas Tum'ah.)
Question: Once he put the water in a Keli, this shows that he wants the water, so it is Huchshar!
Answer: The rainwater fell on the dregs by itself.
Question: The first time he removes the Temed, this shows that he is happy that the water fell there, so it is all Huchshar!
Answer (Rav Papa): He did not remove the Temed. A cow was drinking it.
WINE FOR KIDUSH [line 28]
(Rav): One must make Kidush on wine fitting for Nesachim.
Question: What does this come to exclude?
Suggestion: It excludes unfermented wine (grape juice).
Rejection #1: R. Chiya taught that one should not bring unfermented wine for Nesachim. If he brought it, it is Kosher;
Since it is Kosher b'Diavad for Nesachim, it is Kosher l'Chatchilah for Kidush!
Rejection #2: Rava taught that one may squeeze grapes and make Kidush on the juice!
Answer #1: It excludes wine from the top and bottom of the barrel.
Rejection: R. Chiya taught that one should not bring such wine for Nesachim; if he did, it is Kosher (therefore, it is l'Chatchilah for Kidush).
Answer #2: It excludes wine that is black, or white (and bad), or sweet (and weak), cellar wine (that was not checked; perhaps it is bad), and raisin wine (made by putting water on raisins).
Rejection (Beraisa): One should not bring any of these for Nesachim. If he did, it is Kosher.
Answer #3: It excludes wine that is Koses (it cannot intoxicate), diluted, was exposed, Temed, and wine that smells bad.
(Beraisa): One should not bring any of these for Nesachim. If he did, it is invalid.
Question: Which of these did Rav come to teach about?
Surely, he did not come to exclude Koses. R. Yochanan and R. Yehoshua ben Levi argued about this! (If Rav holds like R. Yochanan, it is proper wine (and Kosher for Kidush). If he holds like R. Yehoshua ben Levi, he should have said that one blesses sheha'Kol on it.)
Surely, he did not come to exclude diluted wine. It is better for Kidush!
(R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina): Chachamim agree with R. Eliezer that we do not bless on the wine (after Birkas ha'Mazon) until adding water.
Surely, he did not need to exclude exposed wine. It is dangerous, and one may not drink it!
Answer #1: He comes to exclude Temed.
Objection: What is the case?
If he put in three measures of water and four came out, it is proper wine!
If he put in three, and three and a half come out, Chachamim and 'Others' argue about this! (The Halachah follows Chachamim, that one blesses sheha'Kol on it.)
Answer #2: He comes to exclude bad-smelling wine.
Answer #3: Really, he comes to exclude exposed wine, even if one passed it through a strainer according to R. Nechemyah (that it is then permitted to drink);
Still, it is invalid for Nesachim - "Hakrivehu Na l'Fechasecha..."
Question (Rav Kahana): Is white wine acceptable for Kidush?
Answer (Rava): No (it must be red) - "Al Tere Yayin Ki Yis'adam."
(Mishnah): Bottles in Sharon...
(Beraisa): The 10 Pitasos (bad bottles) of the Mishnah are usable and sealed with sulfur (but they were not baked properly (Rambam; Rashbam - they will not last long).