YEVAMOS 84 (5 Teves) - Dedicated in memory of Max (Meir Menachem ben Shlomo ha'Levi) Turkel, by his children Eddie and Lawrence and his wife Jean Turkel/Rafalowicz. Max was a warm and loving husband and father and is missed dearly by his family and friends. His Yahrzeit is 5 Teves.

84b----------------------------------------84b

1)

WOMEN ARE PUNISHED JUST LIKE MEN

(a)

Gemara

1.

(Rav Yehudah): A Bas Kohen may marry a Chalal.

2.

Question (Ravin bar Nachman - Beraisa): "Lo Yikchu (they will not marry)" is repeated, to teach that women are also commanded not to marry unfitting men.

3.

Answer (Rava): A woman is forbidden only when he is forbidden to marry her.

4.

Question: A different verse teaches this!

i.

(Rav Yehudah): "Ish O Ishah Asher Ya'asu mi'Kol Chatos ha'Adam" equates women to men for all punishments.

5.

Answer #1: If we learned from there, one would think that this applies only to Mitzvos that are Shavah b'Chol.

6.

Question: Tum'ah is not Shavah b'Chol, yet we need a verse to teach that women (Kohanos) are not forbidden to become Tamei!

i.

"Benei Aharon" are forbidden not to become Tamei, but women (Benos Aharon) are not.

ii.

This Isur applies only to Kohanim, and if not for the verse it would apply to women!

iii.

Suggestion: It would apply to women due to Rav Yehudah's teaching!

7.

Answer: No, we would have learned this from "Lo Yikchu".

8.

Answer #2 (to Question 4): (Indeed, "A man or a woman..." teaches that even a Lav she'Einah Shavah b'Chol applies to women.) "Lo Yikchu" is needed so we will not learn from Tum'ah that women are exempt.

9.

Sanhedrin 66a (Beraisa): Regarding cursing a parent it says "Ish Ish" to include a daughter, Tumtum (a Safek male) and Androginus (one with male and female genitals).

10.

85b (Beraisa): "Ki Yimatzei Ish Gonev Nefesh me'Echav" teaches about a man who kidnapped a man or woman;

11.

"V'Gonev Ish" includes a woman who kidnapped a man.

12.

"U'Mes ha'Ganav ha'Hu" includes a woman who kidnapped a woman.

13.

Kerisus 10b (Mishnah): Shifchah Charufah is unlike all other Arayos regarding punishment and Korban. Regarding all other Arayos, lashes and Korban apply equally to the man and woman. Here, she is lashed, but not he. He brings a Korban, but not she.

14.

Answer (Beraisa): "Bikores Tihyeh" (feminine) teaches that only she is lashed.

15.

(Beraisa): He brings a Korban only when she is lashed.

16.

Question (Rava): "V'Ish Ki Yishkav... Bikores Tihyeh... (v'Hevi Es Ashamo...)" - the verse initially discusses the man, why does it mention her lashes ("Bikores Tihyeh") before his Korban?

17.

Answer: This teaches that he brings a Korban only when she is lashed.

18.

Nidah 48b - Question: All agree that we rely on the lower Siman (pubic hairs) to establish a girl to be an adult. What is the source?

19.

Answer: Rav Yehudah taught that "Ish O Ishah..." equates men and women for all punishments. Just like we establish a man be an adult through one Siman (hairs are his only Siman), also a woman.

(b)

Rishonim

1.

The Rif and Rosh (Bava Kama 6a and 1:19) bring Rav Yehudah's teaching equating women to men for all punishments.

2.

The Rif and Rosh (Yevamos 40a and Nidah 6:1) bring the Gemara in Nidah verbatim.

3.

Rambam (Hilchos Isurei Bi'ah 3:17): If a boy above nine years had Bi'ah with a Shifchah Charufah, he brings a Korban and she is lashed. This is only if she was an adult, a non-virgin and willing, for he is not Chayavei Kerisos unless she is lashed - "Bikores Tihyeh... v'Hevi Es Ashamo."

i.

Rebuttal (Ra'avad): A minor is never punished. Korban is a punishment. Also she is exempt, for he and she are equated.

ii.

Defense (Migdal Oz): Surely, there is a scribal error. The Ra'avad would never say 'Korban is a punishment', for the Mishnah says 'Shifchah is unlike all other Arayos regarding Onesh (punishment) and Korban!' We have a tradition that Onesh refers to lashes, Kares and Misas Beis Din. The Torah equates women to men for all punishments, i.e. Lavim for which one is punished. Korbanos are a Mitzvas Aseh sheha'Zeman Gerama. Women are exempt.

iii.

Note: The Gemara equated women to men regarding punishments from "Ish O Ishah Asher Ya'asu mi'Kol Chatos ha'Adam", which discusses Korbanos!

4.

Rambam (Hilchos Ma'aseh ha'Korbanos 3:2): Men, women and slaves bring all Korbanos.

i.

Radvaz: The Chidush is that slaves bring all Korbanos.

ii.

Ri Korkus: The Torah equates women to men for all punishments. Since we exclude Nochrim, this implies that women bring Korbanos. Also, we find that women bring Korbanos for Zivah and birth.

iii.

Kesef Mishneh: The Torah equates women to men for all punishments. Also, we learned that women do not do Semichah. This implies that they bring Korbanos.

5.

Rambam (Hilchos Geneivah 9:6): One is liable for kidnapping a male or female. A male or female kidnapper is liable.

i.

Magid Mishneh: This is obvious, for the Torah equates women to men for all punishments.

ii.

Rebuttal (Shirei Keneses ha'Gedolah OC bi'Lshonos ha'Rambam, brought in Sefer Likutim in Frankel Rambam): We say this when the Torah uses the masculine form, but not when it says "Ish" (Tosfos Sanhedrin 66a DH Lerabos). Rather, we learn from "V'Gonev Ish" (Sanhedrin 85b).

6.

Rambam (Hilchos Mamrim 5:1): One who curses a parent is liable, whether the child is a man, woman, Tumtum or Androginus.

i.

Radvaz: This is because the Torah equates women to men for all punishments.

ii.

Kesef Mishneh: "Ish Ish" includes a daughter, Tumtum and Androginus.

7.

Mordechai (Bava Kama 90): If a married woman is Moser (hands over) another's property to extortionists, she does not pay now, but we excommunicate her, for the Torah equates women to men for all punishments.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (YD 241:1): A man or woman who curses his or her father or mother, even after their death, is liable to stoning if there were witnesses and warning.

2.

Rema: Likewise, a man or woman who wounds his or her father or mother is liable to choking.

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