(a)They asked Rav Yosef about placing an egg beside a boiling kettle on Shabbos until it roasts slightly (despite the fact that the roasting was achieved without fire). What did he reply?
(b)How does Mar b'rei de'Ravina prove this from a Mishnah in Chavis? What does the Tana say there about an old salted fish or (even) a (fresh) tunny fish?
1)
(a)When they asked Rav Yosef about placing an egg beside a boiling kettle on Shabbos until it roasts slightly - he replied that one would be Chayav a Chatas for doing so (despite the fact that the roasting was achieved without fire).
(b)Mar b'rei de'Ravina proves this from a Mishnah in Chavis - which rules that the only two foods that one may not soak in hot water (even if they were placed in hot water before Shabbos [to remove the salt]) on Shabbos are an old salted fish or (even) a (fresh) tunny fish (because they cook in hot water). This proves that one does not require specifically fire in order to be Chayav for cooking on Shabbos.
2)
(a)Is it permitted to place ...
1. ... a cooked pot into a pit for storage?
2. ... a container of hot water into a ditch of dirty water to cool?
(b)How do we reconcile the Mishnah in 'Chavis' (which permits one to place cold water in the sand to heat), with the Tana Kama of Rebbi Yossi in our Mishnah (who forbids the frying of an egg in a hot cloth)?
(c)What then, is the Machlokes between Rebbi Yossi and the Tana Kama?
(d)According to Rabah, Rebbi Yossi agrees with the prohibition of placing an egg in the sand, because one may come to bury it in hot ashes. What does Rav Yosef say?
2)
(a)It is permitted to place
1. ... a cooked pot into a pit for storage.
2. ... a container of hot water into a ditch of dirty water to cool.
(b)The author of the Mishnah in Chavis (which permits the placing of cold water in the sand to heat) - could well be the Tana Kama of Rebbi Yossi in our Mishnah (who forbids the frying of an egg in a hot cloth) - because even he will permit cooking in the sun, since that is not the normal way of cooking, and one is unlikely to confuse cooking in fire with cooking in the sun.
(c)The Machlokes between Rebbi Yossi and the Tana Kama is - regarding cooking in Toldos ha'Chamah (something which became heated through the sun - e.g. a cloth). Rebbi Yossi permits that too, because, if cooking in the sun is permitted, then so too, is cooking in Toldos ha'Chamah; whereas the Rabbanan forbid it, in case one confuses it with something that became heated through fire (since the two appear the same).
(d)According to Rabah, Rebbi Yossi agrees with the prohibition of placing an egg in the sand, because one may come to bury it in hot ashes. According to Rav Yosef - it is because he may come to dig the sand in order to make a hole to house the egg, in which case he will be Chayav for digging. (See Tosfos DH 'Mipnei').
3)
(a)What is the difference between the reasons of Rabah ( because one may then place it in ashes) and Rav Yosef (because he may dig a hole)?
(b)Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel permits one to roast an egg on a hot roof. According to Rav Yosef, why is he not concerned that one might, in the process, move some of the earth in order to place the egg?
3)
(a)The difference between the reasons of Rabah ( because one may then place it in ashes) and Rav Yosef (because he may dig a hole) will be - when the earth is soft, where Rabah's reason (that he might come to place it in hot ashes) is applicable, but Rav Yosef's (that he might dig a hole) is not (because even if one were to dig a hole, he would not be Chayav, since it would fill in immediately).
(b)Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel permits one to roast an egg on a hot roof. Rav Yosef is not concerned that he might come to dig a hole in the sand on the roof - because it is unusual to find sand on rooftops.
4)
(a)What is the Kashya on Rav Yosef from the men of Teverya in our Mishnah?
(b)Why is this not a Kashya on Rabah?
(c)How do we resolve the Kashya on Rav Yosef?
(d)In that case, on what grounds does Rebbi Yossi disagree with their proof (that Toldas ha'Chamah is forbidden)?
4)
(a)According to Rav Yosef - why did the Chachamim forbid the pipe of the men of Teverya? In what way can that be construed as digging a hole in sand?
(b)This is not a Kashya on Rabbah however - because according to him, the decree is clear, since people may learn from the pipe to heat up water in hot coals.
(c)To resolve the Kashya on Rav Yosef - we explain that the story of the men of Teverya is brought in the Mishnah in support of the Reisha, where Rebbi Yossi permits 'Toldos ha'Chamah'. The Rabbanan prove from there that it is forbidden to cook even in Toldos ha'Chamah (which, they presume, the hot springs of Teverya, are).
(d)Rebbi Yossi disagrees with their proof - because in his opinion, the hot springs of Teverya are Toldos ha'Eish (and not Toldos ha'Chamah), since they pass in front of the entrance to Gehinom, and that is where they get heated.
39b----------------------------------------39b
5)
(a)Which major decree emerges from the Chachamim's ruling by the men of Teverya?
(b)Ula thought that the Halachah is like the men of Teverya, who permitted the pipe. What did Rav Nachman comment on that?
5)
(a)The major decree that emerges from the Chachamim's ruling by the men of Teverya is - that of Hatmanah (the prohibition of wrapping hot foods), even on Erev Shabbos, in something which increases their heat.
(b)Ula thought that the Halachah is like the men of Teverya, who permitted the pipe. But Rav Nachman commented - that the Halachah could hardly be like the men of Teverya, since the men of Teverya themselves had already (retracted and) broken their pipe.
6)
(a)May one take a bath on Shabbos with water that was heated on Erev Shabbos?
(b)May one wash one's face, arms and legs on Yom-Tov with water that was heated on Yom-tov specifically for washing?
(c)What is the problem then, with our Mishnah, which writes, in reference to the pipe of the men of Teverya: 'Im be'Shabbos, ke'Chamin she'Huchmu be'Shabbos, va'Asurin bi'Rechitzah u'vi'Sh'siyah; Im be'Yom-Tov, ke'Chamin she'Huchmu be'Yom-Tov, va'Asurin bi'R'chizah, u'Mutarin bi'Sh'siyah'?
(d)The Gemara answers that our Mishnah is referring to Shituf, and that the author is Rebbi Shimon. What is 'Shituf', and what does Rebbi Shimon say about it?
6)
(a)One may use water that was heated on Erev Shabbos to wash one's face, arms and legs - but not to take a bath.
(b)According to Beis Hillel - washing one's face, arms and legs on Yom-Tov with water that was heated on Yom-tov specifically for washing is permitted, though Beis Shamai forbid it (unless it was heated specifically for drinking).
(c)In that case - our Mishnah, which writes, in reference to the pipe of the men of Teverya: 'Im be'Shabbos, ke'Chamin she'Huchmu be'Shabbos, va'Asurin bi'Rechitzah u'vi'Sh'siyah; Im be'Yom-Tov, ke'Chamin she'Huchmu be'Yom-Tov, va'Asurin bi'R'chizah, u'Mutarin bi'Sh'siyah', follows the opinion of Beis Shamai.
(d)The Gemara answers that our Mishnah is referring to Shituf - pouring water over oneself, and then washing one's entire body with that water, and that the author is Rebbi Shimon - who permits Shituf with water that was heated up before Shabbos or Yom-Tov.
7)
(a)How do we now explain our Mishnah?
(b)Rebbi Meir forbids Shituf altogether. What is Rebbi Yehudah's opinion regarding Shituf?
7)
(a)We now explain our Mishnah like this - 'Im be'Shabbos ... va'Asurin bi'R'chitzah' -i.e. Shituf. (But if the water had been heated on Erev Shabbos, Shituf would have been permitted). 'Im be'Yom-Tov ... va'Asurin bi'R'chitzah - i.e. Shituf (because even Beis Hillel only permit water to be heated up on Yom-Tov for washing one's face, arms and legs - but not for Shituf).
(b)Rebbi Meir forbids Shituf altogether - Rebbi Yehudah prohibits Shituf with hot water, but permits it with cold.
8)
(a)We initially think that Rav Chisda confines the Machlokes Tana'im regarding Shituf with water that was heated before Shabbos, to water that was heated in a vessel, but that, if it was heated in the ground - even in hot water - the water will be permitted (like Rebbi Yehudah), according to all opinions. Why should water that is heated in the ground be any better than water that is heated in a vessel?
(b)On what grounds do we reject this contention?
(c)So what is the final version of Rav Chisda's statement?
8)
(a)We initially think that Rav Chisda confines the Machlokes Tana'im regarding Shituf with water that was heated before Shabbos, to water that was heated in a vessel, but that, if it was heated in the ground - even in hot water - the water will be permitted (like Rebbi Yehudah), according to all opinions. Why should water that is heated in the ground be any better than water that is heated in a vessel. Water that is heated in the ground be any better than water that is heated in a vessel - because whem water is heated in a vessel, it is more evident that it was heated by fire, and people will learn from there to heat up water by pouring it into hot water when it is cold, (which is forbidden); whereas it is less evident that water that has been heated in the ground (from Erev Shabbos) was heated by fire, and so there is less reason to decree an Isur on it.
(b)We reject this contention however - on the basis of the men of Teverya, whose pipe the Chachamim forbade despite the fact that the water was heated in the ground.
(c)So the final version of Rav Chisda's statemen - establishes the Machlokes Tana'im, when the water was heated on the ground, but when it was heated in a vessel, they all agree with Rebbi Meir - that even Shituf is Asur, even in cold water.
9)
(a)Rebbi Yochanan opinion is quoted as being that the Halachah in the above Machlokes is like Rebbi Yehudah. From which general principle of Rebbi Yochanan do we derive this ruling?
(b)How does Rebbi Yochanan's ruling then apply in our case?
9)
(a)Rebbi Yochanan's opinion is quoted as being that the Halachah in the above Machlokes is like Rebbi Yehudah. We learn this - from a statement of his that, wherever there is a dispute between two Tana'im, and a third Tana makes a compromise between the two extreme opinions (meaning that he divides the Halachah into two parts, ruling in the part one like one of the disputants, and in the other part, like the other one), then we rule like the compromise, because he combines with each of the two Tana'im like whom he rules, to make two against one (in which case we follow the majority).
(b)In our case too, Rebbi Yehudah rules like Rebbi Meir by hot water (to make it two against one - le'Hachmir), and like Rebbi Shimon by cold water (to make it two against one - le'Hakel).
10)
(a)The sole exception to this principle is 'Kulei Matlaniyos' (which we already dealt with above on Daf 29). What is the case there?
(b)One of the reasons for this is because Rebbi Akiva was only a Talmid of Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua who argue there (and we do not contend with the opinion of a Talmid when he argues with his Rebbi). What is the other reason?
(c)We conclude that if Rabah bar bar Chanah had not heard it directly from Rebbi Yochanan, we would not have been able to apply the principle to our Beraisa. Why not?
10)
(a)The sole exception to this principle is 'Kulei Matlaniyos' (which we already dealt with above on Daf 29) - regarding a cloth that one hung on a peg or placed behind the door, where we rule like Rebbi Yehoshua against Rebbi Eliezer, and not like Rebbi Akiva who compromises.
(b)One of the reasons for this is because Rebbi Akiva was only a Talmid of Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua who argue there (and we do not contend with the opinion of a Talmid when he argues with his Rebbi). The other reason is - because Rebbi Akiva himself retracted, to agree entirely with Rebbi Yehoshua.
(c)We conclude that had Rabah bar bar Chanah not heard it directly from Rebbi Yochanan, we would not have been able to apply the principle to our case, because it is a Beraisa, and we would have thought that he only said it with regard to a Machlokes in a Mishnah.
