1)

GIRLS WHO DO NOT RECEIVE A FINE (cont.)

(a)

Question: What are Arayos and Shniyos l'Arayos?

(b)

Answer #1: If Arayos is literal (relatives forbidden mid'Oraisa) and Shniyos l'Arayos are relatives forbidden mid'Rabanan.

(c)

Rejection: Since Shniyos are permitted mid'Oraisa, there is a fine for them!

(d)

Version #1 - Answer #2: Arayos are Chayavei Misos Beis Din and Shniyos l'Arayos are Chayavei Krisos;

1.

However, there is a fine of Chayavei Lavin (because Kidushin is Tofsin). This is like Shimon ha'Teimani.

(e)

Version #2 - Answer #2: Arayos are Chayavei Misos Beis Din and Chayavei Krisos. Shniyos l'Arayos are Chayavei Lavin. This is like R. Shimon ben Menasya (who says that there is a fine only if one may marry her).

(f)

(Beraisa #1): A Mema'enes does not receive a fine.

(g)

Inference: Other minors receive a fine.

1.

This is like Chachamim, who say that there is a fine for a minor.

(h)

Question (Seifa): There is no fine for an Ailonis.

1.

This is like R. Meir, who says that only a Na'arah receives a fine. Since an Ailonis goes from being a minor to a Bogeres (she is never a Na'arah), she gets no fine.

2.

Is the Reisha like Chachamim and the Seifa like R. Meir?!

(i)

Answer #1: The entire Mishnah is R. Meir. He holds like R. Yehudah regarding Mi'un (that a Na'arah can do Mi'un).

(j)

Rejection (Beraisa #2 - R. Meir): A girl can do Mi'un until she brings two hairs (after 12 years and becomes a Na'arah);

1.

R. Yehudah permits until there is more black (due to hairs) than white.

(k)

Answer #2: The entire Mishnah is R. Yehudah. He holds like R. Meir regarding a minor (that she receives a fine).

(l)

Rejection: This is not so!

1.

(Rav Yehudah): The Mishnah is like R. Meir.

2.

If Answer #2 were correct, Yehudah would have said that the Mishnah is like R. Meir and R. Yehudah!

(m)

Answer #3: The Tana of Beraisa #1 holds like R. Meir regarding a minor, and like R. Yehudah regarding Mi'un.

(n)

Answer #4 (Rafram): In Beraisa #1, 'Mema'enes' means one who could do Mi'un, i.e. a minor.

(o)

Question: If so, the Beraisa should simply say 'a minor'!

1.

This is left difficult.

(p)

(Beraisa #1): An Ailonis does not receive a fine.

(q)

Contradiction (Beraisa #3): A deaf or insane girl or an Ailonis receives a fine.

(r)

Objection: The answer is obvious! R. Meir says that an Ailonis receives no fine (since she is never a Na'arah). Chachamim say she receives a fine when she is a minor!

1.

Question: The one who asked this should have anticipated the answer!

2.

Answer: He brought this Beraisa in order to ask the following contradiction.

2)

GIRLS AGAINST WHOM THERE IS NO TA'ANAS BESULIM

(a)

Contradiction (against Beraisa #3 - Beraisa #4): There is no Ta'anas Besulim against the following: a deaf or insane girl, a Bogeres, or a Mukas Etz.

1.

There is Ta'anas Besulim against a blind girl or an Ailonis;

2.

R. Meir says, there is no claim against a blind girl.

3.

(Since a deaf (or insane) girl is not assumed to be a virgin, there should be no fine!)

(b)

Answer (Rav Sheshes): R. Gamliel and R. Yehoshua argue about this. (All agree that she receives a fine because she is assumed to be a virgin! R. Gamliel (12b) says that there is no Ta'anas Besulim against her, for if a healthy girl would claim that she was raped she would be believed, therefore we make this claim on behalf of a deaf girl. R. Yehoshua does not believe one who says that she was raped, therefore there is Ta'anas Besulim against a deaf girl.)

(c)

Question: We know only that R. Gamliel believes her when she makes a claim. Would he believe her even when she makes no claim?

(d)

Answer: Yes! In any case like this (she does not know to make the claim), we claim this for her.

(e)

(Beraisa #4): There is no Ta'anas Besulim against a Bogeres.

(f)

Question: Rav said that a Bogeres may have Bi'ah the entire first night (any blood is attributed to Dam Besulim)!

36b----------------------------------------36b

(g)

Answer: If no blood is found, he has Ta'anas Besulim. The Beraisa teaches that if he claims Pesach Pasu'ach, this is not a claim.

(h)

(Beraisa - R. Meir): There is no Ta'anas Besulim against a blind girl.

(i)

(R. Zeira): This is because she falls on the ground (and loses her Besulim).

(j)

Question: All girls fall!

(k)

Answer: If a healthy girl sees blood after falling she tells her mother (who will realize that she is a Mukas Etz). A blind girl will not.

(l)

(Beraisa (Sof 35b)): One who was divorced due to Motzi Shem Ra does not receive a fine.

(m)

Question: She is stoned for adultery!

(n)

Answer (Rav Sheshes): It means that a girl of ill repute in her youth does not receive a fine.

(o)

(Rav Papa): This shows that we do not collect with a bad document.

(p)

Question: What is the case?

1.

Suggestion: There is a rumor that it was forged. Correspondingly, there was a rumor that she had Znus.

2.

Rejection: Rava taught that we are not concerned for such rumors!

(q)

Answer: Two men came and said that she asked them to have Bi'ah with her. Correspondingly, two men said that the bearer of the document asked them to forge for him.

(r)

Question: The comparison is faulty! Many men would agree to Bi'ah, but we do not suspect Yisraelim of forgery!

(s)

Answer: Since he was trying to get a forged document, we are concerned that he forged it himself.

3)

A REDEEMED CAPTIVE

(a)

(Mishnah): These girls do not receive a fine:

1.

A convert, captive or slave who converted, was redeemed or was freed above the age of three years;

2.

R. Yehudah says, a redeemed captive retains her Kedushah (is assumed to be a virgin), even if she was above three;

(b)

One who has Bi'ah with his or his wife's daughter or granddaughter does not pay a fine, since he is Chayav Misah in Beis Din;

1.

Anyone liable to die does not pay - "If there is no fatality, he will be punished monetarily".

(c)

(Gemara - R. Yochanan): R. Yehudah (in our Mishnah) and R. Dosa said the same law.

1.

(Beraisa - R. Dosa): A woman who was taken captive may eat Terumah;

2.

We do not disqualify her from Kehunah just because her captor pushed her around!

(d)

Objection (Rabah): Perhaps they disagree with each other!

1.

R. Yehudah said here that she retains her Kedushah, so one who rapes or seduces her will not profit. He could hold like the Chachamim of R. Dosa, who disqualify her from Kehunah!

2.

R. Dosa permitted her to eat Terumah mid'Rabanan. Regarding the fine mid'Oraisa, he could hold that she does not collect it!

(e)

Question (Abaye): R. Yehudah's reason is not to prevent a sinner from profiting!

1.

(Beraisa - R. Yehudah): A captured girl retains her Kedushah. Even if she was 10 years old, her Kesuvah is 200.

2.

We cannot say that the reason is to prevent a sinner from profiting!

(f)

Answer: There, we are concerned lest men (assume that she was defiled and) refrain from marrying her.

(g)

Question: R. Yehudah holds that she does not retain her Kedushah!

1.

(Beraisa): If a Kohen redeemed a captive, he may marry her. If he testified that she is Tehorah, he may not marry her;

2.

R. Yehudah says, in either case he may not marry her.

3.

Objection: This is illogical! If he can marry her when he redeems her, surely it is no worse when he also testifies to her Kedushah!

4.

Answer: When he redeems and testifies about her, he may marry her. If he only testifies about her, he may not.

5.

In any case, R. Yehudah contradicts his opinion in our Mishnah!

(h)

Answer #1 (Rav Papa): Correct the Beraisa to say that R. Yehudah says, in either case he may marry her.

(i)

Answer #2 (Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): Do not change the text. R. Yehudah addresses Chachamim according to their opinion:

1.

R. Yehudah: I hold that in either case he may marry her. You should say that in either case he may not marry her!

2.

Chachamim hold that a man would not waste his money. He would not redeem her if he was not sure that she is Tehorah;

3.

If he only testifies about her, we suspect that he merely desires her.

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