1)

A WOMAN TAKEN FOR MONETARY REASONS (cont.)

(a)

Answer: No, the same applies even to one taken for ransom. The case happened to be that she was taken for collateral.

(b)

Version #2 - Support (for Rav Shmuel - Rava - Mishnah): R. Yosi ha'Kohen and R. Zecharyah ben ha'Katzav testified about a girl who was taken for collateral for a loan in Ashkelon. Her family distanced themselves from her, even though witnesses say that she was never in seclusion;

1.

Chachamim: If you believe the witnesses that she was taken for collateral, believe them that she was not secluded. If you do not believe them that she was not secluded, do not believe them that she was taken for collateral!

2.

She was taken for money, and she was permitted only due to the witnesses. Without witnesses, she would be forbidden!

3.

Suggestion: We do not distinguish between being taken for collateral and being taken for ransom.

(c)

Rejection: No, we distinguish. Being taken for collateral is more stringent.

(d)

Version #3 - Question (Mishnah): If she is taken for money, she is permitted;

(e)

Contradiction (Mishnah): R. Yosi testified...

1.

Even though she was taken for money, if not for the witnesses she would have been forbidden!

(f)

Answer (Rav Shmuel bar Nachmani): When Yisrael are in control she is permitted. When Nochrim are in control, even when taken for money, she is forbidden.

(g)

(Mishnah): If she was taken for a capital offense...

(h)

Opinion #1 (Rav): An example is the wife of a thief.

(i)

Opinion #2 (Levi): An example is the wife of ben Dunai (a murderer).

(j)

Opinion #1 (Chizkiyah): This applies only when there was a verdict for death.

(k)

Opinion #2 (R. Yochanan): It is even if there was no verdict.

2)

A BESIEGED CITY

(a)

(Mishnah): If a besieged city was captured, all wives of Kohanim are forbidden to their husbands;

(b)

If they have witnesses, even a male or female slave, they are believed;

(c)

A person is not believed about himself.

(d)

(Gemara - Contradiction - Beraisa): If an army entered a city in peacetime, open barrels of wine are forbidden and closed barrels are permitted;

1.

If it was wartime, both are permitted, because the soldiers have no time to pour it to idolatry.

(e)

Answer #1 (Rav Mari): They find time to rape women (for there is a great lust for this), but not to serve idolatry.

(f)

Version #1 (Tosfos) Answer #2 (R. Yitzchak bar Elazar): We distinguish the army of the country from an invading army. (The home army has time, but an invading army does not.)

(g)

Question: Even when the home army entered, certainly one woman escaped. (Why are all forbidden?)

(h)

Version #2 (Rashi, according to Tosfos) (R. Yitzchak bar Elazar): We distinguish the home army (it does not do any damage) from an invading army.

(i)

Question: Even when the home army entered, certainly one soldier escaped (to rape a woman. Why are all permitted?) (end of Version #2)

(j)

Answer #1 (Rav Yehudah): There are guards that see everyone.

(k)

Question: Certainly, guards sometimes doze!

(l)

Answer #2 (R. Levi): The city is surrounded by iron chains, dogs, sticks, thorns and geese (it is very hard to leave, and one who tries will surely be detected).

(m)

(R. Aba bar Zavda): R. Yehudah Nesi'ah and Chachamim argued about how to resolve the Mishnah and the Beraisa. One distinguished between the host army and an invading army, and had no difficulty (he was not concerned lest one escaped). The other (did not distinguish and) had difficulty, and answered that the city is surrounded by chains, etc.

3)

A HIDING PLACE

(a)

(Rav Idi bar Avin): If there is a hiding place in the city, all wives of Kohanim are permitted.

(b)

Question (R. Yirmiyah): Is this even if it can hold only one woman?

1.

Do we say about each woman that she hid there, or not?

(c)

Answer: This is like the case of two paths:

1.

(Mishnah - R. Yehudah): There are two paths; one is Tahor and the other is Tamei. (We do not know which is which.) Reuven walked on one path and touched Taharos (Tahor Kelim or food). Shimon walked on the other path and touched Taharos. If they ask at different times, we tell each that his Taharos are Tehorim. If they ask together, we tell them that their Taharos are Temei'im;

2.

R. Yosi says, in either case their Taharos are Temei'im.

3.

(Rava): If they ask at the same time, all agree that their Taharos are Temei'im. If they ask at different times, all agree that the Taharos are Tehorim. They only argue when one comes to ask for himself and his friend;

i.

R. Yehudah equates this to asking at different times. R. Yosi equates this to asking at the same time.

4.

Here too, we decide the law of all the women together! (The Halachah follows R. Yosi against R. Yehudah.)

(d)

Rejection: The comparison is no good. There, one path is certainly Tamei. Here, perhaps all the women are Tehoros!

(e)

Question (Rav Ashi): If she says that she did not hide there but she is Tehorah, is she believed?

27b----------------------------------------27b

1.

Do we believe her because she did not need to lie? (She could have claimed that she hid there, so surely she tells the truth!)

2.

Or, do we not say this?

(f)

Answer: This is like when Reuven rented his donkey to Shimon and told him not to lead it near the river, since it is wet. Shimon led it by the river, and it died.

1.

Shimon: I led it by the river, but it was dry!

2.

Rabah: He is believed. He did not need to lie, for he could have said that he didn't lead it by the river!

3.

Abaye: This reasoning does not override witnesses. (Rashi Bava Metzia 81b - we can testify that it was wet by the river. Teshuvas Rosh 82:1 - we know that it is usually wet.)

(g)

Rejection: The comparison is no good. There, (it is as if) witnesses know that it was wet. Here, we have no witnesses that she is Temei'ah. It is merely a suspicion!

1.

We do say 'why should she lie?' to overcome a suspicion.

4)

CAN A SLAVE TESTIFY ABOUT HER MASTER?

(a)

(Mishnah): Even a male or female slave is believed.

(b)

Even her Shifchah (female slave) is believed.

(c)

Contradiction (Mishnah): (If a man divorced his wife on condition that he die from his current illness,) they may not be secluded together without witnesses. It suffices even if a male or female slave is with them, except for her Shifchah, for she is uninhibited in front of her Shifchah.

(d)

Answer #1 (Rav Papi): We are more lenient about a captured woman.

(e)

Answer #2 (Rav Papa): We believe his Shifchah, not hers.

(f)

Question: We do believe her Shifchah!

1.

(Mishnah): A person is not believed about himself.

2.

Inference: Her Shifchah is believed!

(g)

Answer: No, her Shifchah is like herself.

(h)

Answer #3 (Rav Ashi): Both Mishnayos discuss her Shifchah. (Normally,) her Shifchah sees and is silent;

1.

Her Shifchah cannot be a chaperon, for we permit (seclusion) when the chaperon is silent (perhaps she will see Bi'ah and be silent);

2.

We forbid a captive if the witness is silent. If the Shifchah testifies, she is believed.

(i)

Question: (Just like her Shifchah would see the divorced couple have Bi'ah and be silent,) we should be concerned lest she lie (about a captive)!

(j)

Answer: Keeping silent (when seeing her sin) is one sin. She would not do a second sin of testifying falsely, like we find in the case of Mari bar Isak:

1.

Mari's brother Ploni came after being away for a long time. He asked for half the inheritance of their father.

2.

Mari: I don't recognize you.

3.

Rav Chisda: Mari's claim is plausible. We find that Yosef's brothers did not recognize him because he left them before he had a full beard! Ploni must bring witnesses to testify that he is Mari's brother.

4.

Ploni: I have witnesses, but they are afraid to testify because Mari is powerful.

5.

Rav Chisda (to Mari): Get the witnesses to testify that he is not your brother.

6.

Mari: Is this the law? The one who seeks to take money from its owner must bring proof!

7.

Rav Chisda: I rule thusly to you and your fellow strong-arms.

8.

Question: We should be concerned lest the witnesses (fear Mari and) lie for him!

9.

Answer: They would not do a second sin, to testify falsely.

(k)

Suggestion: Tana'im argue about whether or not her Shifchah can testify for her:

1.

(Beraisa #1): We accept testimony that a captive is Tehorah from a man, woman, boy, girl, her father, mother, brother or sister, but not from her son, daughter, slave or Shifchah;

2.

(Beraisa #2): All are believed to testify for her, except herself and her husband.

(l)

Rav Papi and Rav Ashi must say that the Tana'im argue (Beraisa #1 contradicts them).

(m)

Question: Must Rav Papa say that they argue?

(n)

Answer: No. Beraisa #2 discusses when they speak l'Fi Tumo;

1.

(Rav Dimi): A man was talking l'Fi Tumo in front of Rebbi, about when he and his mother were captured.

2.

The man: When I went to draw water... or gather wood, my mind was (always) on my mother.

3.

Based on this, Rebbi allowed her to marry a Kohen.

5)

A WOMAN WHO BECAME FORBIDDEN TO HER HUSBAND

(a)

(Mishnah - R. Zecharyah ben ha'Katzav (a Kohen)): I swear that my wife didn't leave my side from the time the invaders entered Yerushalayim until they left!

(b)

Chachamim: A man cannot testify for himself.

(c)

(Gemara - Beraisa): (Even though Chachamim forbade her to him,) he designated a house for her in his courtyard. She would leave before her children and enter after her children (to avoid seclusion with him).

(d)

Question (Abaye): Is this set-up acceptable for a divorced woman?

1.

Perhaps we are lenient only for a captive. Or, perhaps there is no difference!

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