12th CYCLE DEDICATION
GITIN 86-87 - sponsored by Asher and Etti Schoor of Lawrence, NY. May they be blessed with a year filled with the joy of the Torah and see their children continue to grow in Avodas Hashem.

1)

A JOINT GET (cont.)

(a)

Answer #2 (Reish Lakish): Even if there is one date for all, this can also be Tofes;

1.

Rather, in a joint Get they write 'we, Reuven and Shimon, divorce our wives Leah and Rachel...'

(b)

Question (R. Aba): R. Yochanan said that if there is one date for all, this is a joint Get. Perhaps the witnesses signed only intending for the last Get!

1.

(Beraisa): If witnesses signed underneath a greeting written underneath a Get, it is Pasul. Perhaps the witnesses did not sign for the Get, rather, for the greeting.

(c)

Answer: R. Avahu taught that if it says 'Sha'alu (greet)' under the Get, the Get is Pasul. If it says 'v'Sha'alu (and greet)', the Get is valid (the witnesses signed for the Get and for the greeting);

1.

Here also, it says 'Reuven and Shimon and...'

(d)

Question (R. Aba): R. Yochanan said that if one date is written for all, this is a joint Get and only the last one is valid. Even if it were not a joint Get, the first one s would be Pasul, for they were not signed on the day they were written!

(e)

Answer (Mar Kashisha brei d'Rav Chisda): The case is, all were written on the same day and signed that day.

(f)

Question (Ravina): Reish Lakish says, even if one date is written for all, it is Tofes, and a joint Get is when they write 'we, Reuven and Shimon divorce our wives Leah and Rachel...' If so, two women are divorced with one document!

1.

It says "he will write for her", not for her and her companion!

(g)

Answer (Rav Ashi):: Later, the Get says 'Reuven divorced Leah, Shimon divorced Rachel...'

(h)

Question (Ravina): Why is this needed? It is not needed in a Get of freedom!

1.

(Beraisa): If one wrote a document giving all his property to his two slaves, they acquire themselves and free each other.

(i)

Answer (Rav Ashi): We established that Beraisa to be when he wrote two documents.

(j)

One Beraisa supports R. Yochanan, and one supports Reish Lakish:

(k)

Support (for R. Yochanan - Beraisa): If five men wrote in a Get 'Reuven divorced Leah, Shimon divorced Rachel... and there is one date, and the witnesses signed below, all are valid. It must be given to each woman.

1.

If each Get has its own date, and the witnesses signed below, only the Get that the witnesses signed under is valid;

(l)

R. Yehudah ben Beseira says, if there are spaces between the Gitin, the others (except for the last) are Pasul. If not, all are valid, the separate dates do not separate the Gitin.

(m)

Support (for Reish Lakish - Beraisa): If five men wrote a joint Get 'we, Reuven and Shimon... divorced our wives Leah and Rachel... Reuven divorced Leah, Shimon divorced Rachel... and there is one date, and the witnesses signed below, all are valid. It must be given to each woman.

1.

If each Get has its own date, and there is space between each Get, the Get that the witnesses signed underneath is valid, the others are not;

(n)

R. Meir says, even if there are no spaces between the Gitin, the others are Pasul, because the separate dates separate them.

(o)

Question: According to Reish Lakish, why must there be a separate date for each? He said that even this is Tofes!

(p)

Answer: That is only when the Gitin are not written together at the beginning. Here, they are written together at the beginning, so if there are separate dates, they are Tofes. If not, they are a joint Get.

2)

ON WHICH GET DID WITNESSES SIGN?

(a)

(Mishnah): If two Gitin were written side by side, and two witnesses signed in Hebrew under them, from under the right Get to under the left Get, and two witnesses signed underneath in Yevanis, from under the left Get to under the right Get:

1.

The Get on the side that the first signatures begin (i.e. Hebrew writing goes from right to left) is valid.

(b)

If one witness signed underneath in Hebrew, and under him a witness signed in Yevanis, then a Hebrew witness, then a Yevanis, both Gitin are Pasul.

(c)

(Gemara) Suggestion: Both Gitin should be valid due to the first two witnesses!

1.

Each witness signed under both Gitin, e.g. under the right Get it says 'Reuven' (his own name), and under the left Get, 'ben Yakov' (his father's name).

2.

(Mishnah): If a witness signed 'Ben Ploni, witness', the signature is valid.

(d)

Rejection: The case is, 'Reuven ben' is written under the right Get, and 'Yakov witness' is under the left Get.

(e)

Suggestion: Still, 'Yakov witness' is a valid signature. The left Get should also be valid!

1.

(Mishnah): If a witness signed 'Ploni, witness', the signature is valid.

(f)

Rejection #1: The case is, he signed 'Reuven ben Yakov', and did not write 'witness' at all.

(g)

Rejection #2: He wrote 'witness', but we know that 'Yakov witness' is unlike Yakov's signature (so we cannot accept is for a signature).

87b----------------------------------------87b

(h)

Suggestion: We should assume that Reuven signed his father's name (and this is a valid signature)!

(i)

Rejection: One would not sign his father's name in place of his own name.

(j)

Suggestion: Perhaps Reuven regularly signs his father's name, like a symbol in lieu of his own name!

1.

Rav would draw a fish in lieu of signing his name...Rav Chisda would write a 'Samech'...

(k)

Rejection: One is not so brazen to use his father's name for this.

(l)

Suggestion: The right Get should be Kosher due to the Hebrew witnesses, and the left Get due to the Yevanis witnesses!

1.

(Mishnah): If a Get was written in Hebrew and the witnesses signed in Yevanis, or vice-versa, it is Kosher.

2.

Suggestion: Perhaps the left Get is not Kosher because two lines (occupied by the Hebrew signatures) separate the Yevanis signatures from the Get.

3.

Rejection: Chizkiyah taught that if relatives (who are Pasul witnesses) signed empty lines between a Get and the Kosher witnesses, it is valid.

(m)

Answer: Indeed, Ze'iri taught a Beraisa that says that both Gitin are Kosher!

1.

Our Tana is concerned lest the Yevanim also signed right to left (to be consistent with the Hebrew witnesses. If so, they also testify about the right Get).

(n)

(Mishnah): If one witness signed underneath in Hebrew, and under him a witness signed in Yevanis, then a Hebrew witness, then a Yevanis, both Gitin are Pasul.

(o)

Version #1 (Rashi) Suggestion: The right Get should be Kosher with a Hebrew and a Yevani witness, and also the left Get! (The case is, the middle two witnesses started signing on one line and finished on the next. If we assume that each signed normally in his language, each Get has one Hebrew and one Yevani witness.)

(p)

Answer: Indeed, Ze'iri taught a Beraisa that says that both Gitin are Kosher!

1.

Our Tana is unsure on which Get the bottom three signatures signed. Perhaps (any or all of them) deviated from the way of his language, in order to sign like the witness above him.

(q)

Version #2 (Tosfos) Suggestion: The (right) Get should be Kosher with a Hebrew witness and a Yevani witness (even if we were concerned that the bottom witnesses signed backwards! If we were not concerned, it would be Kosher with the two Hebrew witnesses, and the left Get would be Kosher through the Yevani witnesses!)

(r)

Answer: Indeed, Ze'iri taught a Beraisa that says that both Gitin are Kosher!

1.

Our Tana is concerned, perhaps the three bottom signatures all signed left to right (the Yevanim - as is normal in Yevanis; the second Hebrew witness mimicked the Yevani witness above him), therefore, we cannot declare the Get valid.)

3)

GITIN WRITTEN IN DIFFERENT WAYS

(a)

(Mishnah): If part of the Get was written in a different column and the witnesses signed below, it is valid.

(b)

If witnesses signed at the top of the page, or on the side, or on the other side of a normal Get, it is Pasul.

(c)

If two Gitin are written on one page, and the witnesses signed in between, and each Get begins at the signatures (and goes outwards), both are Pasul;

1.

If both Gitin end at the signatures, the Get that is above the signatures when the Get is positioned so that we can read the signatures (right-side up) is Kosher. The other is Pasul;

2.

If one of the Gitin ends at the signatures, it is Kosher, and the other is Pasul.

3.

If a Get was written in Hebrew and the signatures are in Yevanis, or vice-versa, or one witness signed in Hebrew and the other in Yevanis, it is Kosher;

(d)

If the Get is in a scribe's handwriting and one witness signed, it is Kosher.

(e)

The following are valid signatures - 'Ploni (is a) witness', 'the son of Ploni is a witness', 'Ploni the son of Almoni' (even though he did not write 'witness').

1.

People of Yerushalayim who spoke concisely would sign Gitin this way.

(f)

If family names of the husband and wife were used, it is Kosher.

(g)

(Gemara) Question: When the Get finishes in a second column, we should be concerned lest two Gitin were written, one in each column, and the bottom of the Get in the first column was cut off, and also the top of the Get in the second column!

(h)

Answer #1 (R. Aba): The case is, the writing in the first column has blank parchment underneath.

(i)

Question: Still, we should be concerned lest the first Get was never finished, and the second column is the end of a different Get (the top was cut off)!

(j)

Answer: We can answer like R. Aba answered above. The case is, the writing in the second column has blank parchment above it.

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