Implied suggestion: R. Shimon does not distinguish between whether or not they were Me'arev, and Rav holds like him when they were not Me'arev.

Rejection #1: If so, below, when Rav Chisda challenges Shmuel and R. Yochanan "people will say that there are two Kelim in a Chatzer - this is forbidden and this is permitted", he should challenge also R. Shimon!

Rejection #2: Also Rav Sheshes, who challenges Rav "if you will say that it is when they were not Me'arev, how do you find Kelim of (they were Shoves in) the house in the Chatzer?", Rav also agrees that R. Shimon said even when they were Me'arev! (Rav himself could hold that one would not find Kelim of the house in the Chatzer. Only R. Shimon said that they are found!)

Conclusion: Rav holds that R. Shimon himself said only when they were not Me'arev.

Question #1 (against R. Tam above): Now, Shmuel holds oppositely to Rav. Shmuel does not decree here, for he says whether or not they were Me'arev, and regarding three Chatzeros he decrees, for he holds like Rabanan, who say that all three are forbidden, the way R. Tam explains (above, 48b DH Reshus):

And Rav decrees here, and there he does not decree, for he rules there like R. Shimon!

Question #2: Here, Shmuel answers that R. Shimon teaches like he taught elsewhere, that he does not decree. This implies that [Shmuel] holds like [R. Shimon] in the case of three Chatzeros, but the way R. Tam explains, [Shmuel] holds like Rabanan!

Implied question: Shmuel said in Gitin (79b) that one may not stand on this roof and collect rainwater from his friend's roof!

Answer (Ri): There, he forbids to collect and bring it to his house. Just like it is forbidden to transfer Kelim that were Shoves in the house to a Chatzer or roof that was not Me'arev, even according to R. Shimon, so it is forbidden from a roof of Chatzer to the house (92a);

This is only from his friend's roof, but from his own roof he may collect and bring to his house. His friend's roof does not forbid him;

Shmuel teaches like he taught elsewhere. He said above (89a) Gud Asik Mechitzta.

Question: What is Shmuel's Chidush? Obviously it is forbidden to take to his house!

Answer: He teaches that even though he collects from the air, and the rain did not yet touch the roof [it is forbidden].

Version #1: Rashi says that the text does not say this.

Version #2: Ri says that [the text says so]; it is in Toras Kohanim in several places.

Explanation #1: Also R. Tam's text says so. He explains "who told you that the Halachah follows R. Shimon whether or not they were Me'arev?"

Explanation #2 (Rashbam): It refers to Rav. I.e. who told you, that you distinguish between them? This is not so. Rather, it is whether or not they were Me'arev.

Version #3: Some texts say "Melachshecha" in one word. They explain that [R. Yochanan] was born from a Lachash (whisper, like it says in Yoma 82b. When he was in the womb, on Yom Kipur, his mother smelled food and craved it. They whispered to her "today is Yom Kipur" and the craving ceased.)

Explanation: According to Rav, who establishes ["Anshei u'Mirpeses" in] our Mishnah (above, 84a) to discuss those who live on the balcony, it is fine here;

When the people of the balcony were Me'arev by themselves, and the people of the Chatzer by themselves, Kelim of the house are common in the Chatzer, and Kelim of the Aliyos on the balcony;

When the rock is 10 tall, it pertains to the balcony, for it is at their level, and it is forbidden for people of the Chatzer to use on the rock even Kelim that were Shoves in the Chatzer, due to Kelim that were Shoves in the house;

[If the rock is] less than this, both of them are forbidden (for it is convenient for both of them).

When they were not Me'arev, so Kelim of the house and Aliyos are not common there, the balcony and Chatzer are one Reshus, and they do not forbid each other.

Explanation (cont.): However, Shmuel calls the people of the Aliyos "[Anshei] Mirpeses." He discusses when the rock is opposite the windows, and the people of the Aliyos use there via the windows when they were not Me'arev.

Question: When it is less than 10, how can the people of the Aliyos use on the rock Kelim that were Shoves in the Aliyos, via their windows? The Chatzer and the balcony are one Reshus only for Kelim that were Shoves in them, but not for Kelim that were Shoves in the house and Aliyos!

Answer: According to Shmuel, ["they were not Me'arev" in the Mishnah there] refers only to the Reisha, which discusses when [the rock] is 10 tall. Then we distinguish between whether or not they were Me'arev, like we explained above according to Shmuel;

However, the Seifa, which teaches "less than 10, it is to the Chatzer", it is only for the Chatzer. According to Shmuel, surely this is whether the Bnei Aliyah were Me'arev by themselves and the Bnei Chatzer by themselves, or they were not Me'arev. In either case, Bnei Chatzer are permitted, and Bnei Aliyos are forbidden to lower Kelim from their windows.

Explanation: This refers to all the Chatzeros. If it were only in that Chatzer, even if they were Shoves in the house [they are permitted]!

Explanation (cont.): According to Rav, we discuss when the Chatzeros were not Me'arev with the houses.

Question #1: If so, how do we bring a proof below to Rav, who said that a Mavuy in which they did not make Shituf, they may carry only within four Amos?

Rav himself forbids only when the Chatzeros were Me'arev with the houses, but if they were not Me'arev, he does not forbid, like is proven in Shabbos (30b)!

Strengthening of question: Just the contrary, it is difficult for Rav. In such a case Rav does not forbid!

Question #2: Rav ruled like R. Shimon. Here it says that R. Shimon permits!

Answer: We bring a proof that just like when they were Me'arev according to Rav, according to R. Shimon, they may carry in it only within four Amos, and the reason is like Rashi explained - since they were Me'arev, it is forbidden to transfer from the Chatzer to the Mavuy even Kelim that were Shoves in [the Chatzer], due to Kelim that were Shoves in the house...

There is no usage in the Mavuy, and it is like a Karmelis, since it has only three Mechitzos. Therefore, one may carry in it only within four Amos...

Similarly, according to Rabanan, even if they were not Me'arev, one may carry in it only within four. They forbid transferring Kelim of the Chatzer to the Mavuy, for according to them, the Chatzer and Mavuy are not one Reshus.

Explanation: It is forbidden to transfer from the Chatzer to the Mavuy, because Kelim of the houses are common in the Chatzer.

Distinction: However, they do not forbid from Chatzer to Chatzer, even though they were Me'arev, for what is used in this Chatzer, it is not common to use it in another Chatzer. However, it is common to take from the Chatzer to the Mavuy.

Implied question: Rabanan [in the case] of three Chatzeros (45b) decreed, and also in the Beraisa [here] of a roof, Chatzer, Achsadra and balcony, we say that it is only if they were not Me'arev. [This implies that] if they were Me'arev, we decree!

Answer: Perhaps Rabanan here are not the Rabanan there.

Support: Even without [this question] we must say so, for above (46b) it says that the Tana (i.e. Rabanan) who argue[s] with R. Shimon [about three Chatzeros] is R. Yehudah, and in the Beraisa that supports Rav Yehudah (91a), R. Yehudah holds that a roof and Karfef are one Reshus, and Rabanan here disagree.

Note: The Maharsha says that the following is a new Dibur.

Citation: [The Gemara says] Ka Mashma Lan (we learn not like this).

Explanation: [Rabanan] argue [even] when they were not Me'arev. The reason it is forbidden from the Chatzer to the Mavuy is because the Mavuy is like a Karfef. It is not one Reshus with the Chatzer.