12th Cycle Dedication

ERCHIN 17 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs. Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the twelfth Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

(a)How does Rebbi Eliezer in a Beraisa, explain the words "ve'es Avoseichem" (in the Pasuk in Shmuel [in connection with Shmuel's rebuke of the people]) "ve'Atah, Hisyatzvu ve'Ishaftah eschem Lifnei Hash-m es Kol Tzidkos Hash-m asher Asah Itchem ve'es Avoseichem")?

(b)Rebbi Yehudah Nesi'ah and the Rabbanan argue over the Pasuk in Tehilim "Zeh Dor Dorshav Mevakshei Ya'akov Selah". According to one of them, the generation follows its leaders. What does the other one say?

(c)We refute the suggestion that this is referring to their level of righteousness, because of Tzidkiyahu in his time, and Yehoyakim in his. What does Rebbi Yochanan in the name of Rebbi Shimon ben Yochai say about ...

1. ... Yehoyakim and his generation (based on the Pasuk in Yirmiyah "Bereishis Mamlechus Yehoyakim ben Yoshiyahu Melech Yisrael")?

2. ... Tzidkiyahu's generation (who were wicked) and (the righteous) Tzidkiyah?

(d)In what regard then, are Rebbi Yehudah Nesi'ah and the Rabbanan arguing?

1)

(a)Rebbi Eliezer in a Beraisa, explains the words "ve'es Avoseichem" (in the Pasuk in Shmuel [in connection with Shmuel's rebuke of the people]) "ve'Atah, Hisyatzvu ve'Ishaftah echem Lifnei Hash-m es Kol Tzidkos Hash-m asher Asah Itchem ve'es Avoseichem") to mean that - even the Avos would be unable to stand up to the Tochachah of Hash-m.

(b)Rebbi Yehudah Nesi'ah and the Rabbanan argue over the Pasuk in Tehilim "Zeh Dor Dorshav Mevakshei Ya'akov Selah". According to one of them, the generation follows its leaders. According to the other - the leaders follow the generation.

(c)We refute the suggestion that this is referring to their level of righteousness, because of Tzidkiyahu in his time and Yehokim in his. Rebbi Yochanan in the name of Rebbi Shimon bar Yochai says ...

1. ... based on the Pasuk in Yirmiyah "Bereishis Mamlechus Yehoyakim ben Yoshiyahu Melech Yisrael", that - Hash-m wanted to revert the world to null and void because of the wicked Yehoyakim, but when he saw his generation (who were more righteous than him), His anger abated.

2. ... that - He wanted to revert the world to null and void because of Tzidkiyahu's generation (who were wicked), but when He saw Tzidkiyah (who was a Tzadik), His anger abated.

(d)Rebbi Yehudah Nesi'ah and the Rabbanan are therefore arguing over - whether the soft-heartedness or hard-heartedness nature of the people follows that of the king, or vice-versa.

Hadran alach 'Yesh be'Erchin'

Perek Heseg Yad

2)

(a)What does our Mishnah mean when it says 'Heseg Yad be'Noder'? How will we assess a man who declares 'Erech shel Ashir Zeh Alai', if he himself is poor (or vice-versa)?

(b)And who determines the age groupings and the sex of Erchin? How will we assess the amount that a young man of nineteen pays if he declares ...

1. ... on a man who is over sixty 'Erko shel P'loni Alai'?

2. ... on a girl 'Erkah shel P'lonis Alai'?

3. ... 'Erki (or Erech shel P'loni) Alai', and he (or the Ne'erach) turns twenty before having paid?

(c)And what will be the Din in the equivalent case regarding a Korban Oleh ve'Yored? Which Korban does a man who declares 'Korbano shel Metzora Zeh Alai' have to bring, assuming he is rich and the Metzora, poor, or vice-versa?

(d)Bearing in mind that by Heseg Yad we go after the status of the Ma'arich (seeing as the Ne'erach is not Chayav anything), which case of Heseg Yad does Rebbi present where the Ma'arich is assessed according to the Ne'erach?

2)

(a)When our Mishnah says 'Heseg Yad be'Noder', it means that if a man declares 'Erech shel Ashir Zeh Alai', and he himself is poor (or vice-versa) - we assess him according to his status, not according to that of the Ne'erach.

(b)A young man of nineteen who declares ...

1. ... on a man who is over sixty 'Erko shel P'loni Alai' - pays the Erech of a man of sixty.

2. ... on a girl 'Erkah shel P'lonis Alai' - pays the Erech of the girl.

3. ... 'Erki (or Erech shel P'loni) Alai', and he (or the Ne'erach) turns twenty before he has paid - he pays the Erech of someone under twenty (like the Ne'erach was at the time of the declaration).

(c)In the equivalent case, where a rich man declares 'Korbano shel Metzora Ani Zeh Alai', (or vice-versa) - he brings whichever Korban the Metzora would be Chayav to bring.

(d)Bearing in mind that by Heseg Yad we go after the status of the Ma'arich (since the Ne'erach is not Chayav anything), Rebbi presents a case of Heseg Yad where the Ma'arich is assessed according to the Ne'erach - there where Reuven, who is rich, declares 'Erki Alai', and Shimon, who is poor, says 'Mah she'Amar Zeh, Alai'.

3)

(a)What is the Din in the case of a poor man who declares 'Dami Alai'?

(b)Then why does our Mishnah say 'Heseg Yad be'Noder', and not 'be'Ma'arich'?

(c)And why does the Tana continue 've'ha'Shanim be'Nidar' instead of 'be'Ne'erach'?

(d)What do we learn from the Pasuk " ... asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder"?

3)

(a)If a poor man declares 'Dami Alai' - he remains obligated to pay Hekdesh his assessed value until he has paid in full.

(b)Our Mishnah says 'Heseg Yad be'Noder' (and not 'be'Ma'arich') - because it is copying the Lashon of the Pasuk " ... asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder" though it really refers to someone who is Ma'arich).

(c)And the Tana continues 've'ha'Shanim be'Nidar' instead of 'be'Ne'erach' - in order to balance Heseg Yad be'Noder, with which it began.

(d)We learn from the Pasuk " ... asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder" that - by Heseg Yad, we go after the Noder.

4)

(a)What problem do we have with ...

1. ... the ruling 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein ... ' (implying that a Madir Ashir who undertakes to bring the Korban of a Metzora Ani, brings the Korban of a Metzora Ani)? Which Pasuk in Metzora prompts us to ask that we ought to take into consideration the fact that the Madir is rich?

2. ... Rebbi Yitzchak's answer, establishing our Mishnah by where the Madir is an Ani too (based on the same Pasuk)?

(b)What does Rav Ada bar Ahavah learn from the Pasuk there "ve'Ein Yado Maseges". Whom does this come to include?

(c)This implies that a Madir Ashir who undertakes to bring the Korban of a Metzora Ani must bring a Korban Ashir. What problem does this create with our Mishnah 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein'?

4)

(a)The problem with ...

1. ... the ruling 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein ... ' (implying that a Madir Ashir who undertakes to bring the Korban of a Metzora Ani, brings the Korban of a Metzora Ani) is that - he is not poor, and the Torah specifically writes "ve'Im Dal Hu" implying that the concession of a Korban Oleh ve'Yored is confined to the Metzora (and does not extend to the Madir).

2. ... Rebbi Yitzchak's answer, establishing our Mishnah by where the Madir is an Ani too (based on the same Pasuk) is - how we know that Heseg Yad applies to the Madir at all; maybe the Torah only has pity on the Ma'arich?

(b)Rav Ada bar Ahavah however, learns from the Pasuk there "ve'Ein Yado Maseges" that - (in spite of "Hu") the Madir is included in the Din of Oleh ve'Yored.

(c)This implies that a Madir Ashir who undertakes to bring the Korban of a Metzora Ani must bring a Korban Ashir, creating a problem with our Mishnah 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein' - seeing as in fact, by Korbanos, we go after the Noder just like by Heseg Yad.

5)

(a)We answer that 'be'Korbanos Eino Kein' is indeed not referring to the case of a Metzora Ani. Then what case is it referring to? What does it come to preclude?

(b)Why might we otherwise have thought that he brings the Korban of an Ani?

(c)And from where do we learn that he does not?

5)

(a)We answer that 'be'Korbanos Eino Kein' is indeed not referring to the case of a Metzora Ani and - but to a Madir Ani who undertakes to bring the Korban of a Metzora Ashir (in which case we go after the Mudar and not after the Madir, like we do by Heseg Yad, as we just explained).

(b)We might otherwise have thought that he brings the Korban of an Ani - taking our cue from Heseg Yad.

(c)And we learn that he does not from the Pasuk - "Im Dal Hu" (and the Metzora is not poor).

6)

(a)Why is this latter D'rashah not necessary according to Rebbi in our Mishnah ('Ashir she'Amar Erki Alai, ve'Shama Ani ... ')? What is Rebbi's reason?

(b)What do we answer?

(c)But did we not just dismiss this D'rashah as unnecessary?

6)

(a)This latter D'rashah is not necessary according to Rebbi in our Mishnah ('Ashir she'Amar Erki Alai, ve'Shama Ani ... ') - because he anyway goes after the Metzora, and not after the Noder.

(b)We answer that - according to Rebbi, we need the Pasuk to obligate the case of a Metzora Ani and a Madir Ashir to bring the Korban Ashir, even though Rebbi normally goes after the Metzora.

(c)Granted, we just dismissed this D'rashah as unnecessary - but that was according to the Rabbanan, who go after the Noder anyway.

17b----------------------------------------17b

7)

(a)What does our Mishnah say about a Ma'arich who was rich at the time of the declaration, but who became poor before paying (or vice-versa)?

(b)And what does Rebbi Yehudah say about Ani ve'He'eshir ve'He'eni?

(c)The Tana continues 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein'. What is the Din by Korbanos?

(d)To which case is Rebbi referring when he says that (sometimes) Erchin has the same Din as Korbanos?

(e)Why is that?

7)

(a)Our Mishnah rules that a Ma'arich who was rich at the time of the declaration, but who became poor before paying (or vice-versa) - must pay the Erech of a rich man (not Heseg Yad).

(b)Rebbi Yehudah holds that 'Ani ve'He'eshir ve'He'eni' - too, must pay the Erech of an Ashir.

(c)The Tana continues 'Aval be'Korbanos Eino Kein'. By the Korbanos of a Metzora - we go after the obligation of the Metzora (as we learned in the previous Mishnah).

(d)When Rebbi says that (sometimes) Erchin has the same Din as Korbanos, he is referring to - the case of a Metzora Ashir who declares 'Erki Alai', and a poor man who overhears his Neder, undertakes to pay the same Erech as the rich Metzora, and he is Chayav to pay that sum ...

(e)... because, as opposed to a regular case, where the Ne'erach is not obligated to pay anything, in this case, he is.

8)

(a)What does the Mishnah say about a case where, after the Kohen assesses a Ma'arich Ani, his father dies leavings him a fortune or whose ships arrive from overseas laden with treasures?

(b)We learn from " ... asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder" that Ani ve'He'eshir pays the Erech of an Ashir. What do we learn from "al-Pi asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder"?

(c)And what does Rebbi Yehudah extrapolate from the word "Hu" Iin the Pasuk "ve'Im Mach Hu me'Erkecha")?

(d)How do we query this from the word "Hu" (in the Pasuk [in connection with the Korban Oleh ve'Yored of a Metzora] "ve'Im Dal Hu")?

8)

(a)The Mishnah rules that, in a case where, after the Kohen assesses a Ma'arich Ani, his father dies leavings him a fortune or whose ships arrive from overseas laden with treasures - he retains the Din of an Ani, and Hekdesh benefits nothing from the Ma'arich's newfound wealth (as we will explain in the Sugya).

(b)We learn from " ... asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder" that Ani ve'He'eshir pays the Erech of an Ashir, and from "al-Pi asher Tasig Yad ha'Noder" that - Ashir ve'He'eni does too.

(c)Whereas Rebbi Yehudah extrapolates from the Pasuk "ve'Im Mach He me'Erkecha" that - Heseg Yad only applies to someone who is poor from beginning to end (but if he is rich in the middle, he must pay the full Erech).

(d)We query this from the Pasuk (in connection with the Korban Oleh ve'Yored of a Metzora) "ve'Im Dal Hu" - which we do not Darshen in this manner, according to any of the Tana'im whom we are about to cite.

9)

(a)The last Kashya is based on a Mishnah in Nega'im, where Rebbi Shimon goes after the Chatas. What does this mean? What does the Chatas comprise?

(b)According to Rebbi Yehudah there, it all depends on the Asham. What does Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov in a Beraisa say?

9)

(a)The last Kashya is based on a Mishnah in Nega'im, where Rebbi Shimon goes after the Chatas (Beheimah, by a Metzora Ashir, and Chatas ha'Of by a Metzora Ani), which means that - whatever his status at the time that he brings the Chatas determines his status for the other Korbanos too.

(b)According to Rebbi Yehudah there, it all depends on the Asham, whereas according to Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov in a Beraisa - it depends on the two live birds (one of which is sprinkled, whilst the other is sent away alive).

10)

(a)To explain why we do not Darshen "Hu" like we did by Erchin, we establish the Din by Metzora as a Gezeiras ha'Kasuv (" ... asher Tasig Yado be'Taharaso"), only the Tana'im argue over how to interpret the Pasuk. How does Rebbi Shimon (Chatas) learn his ruling from there? What does the Torah write immediately prior to the Pasuk of the Metzora Ani?

(b)According to Rebbi Yehudah and Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov, the criterion lies in the Pasuk " ... asher Tasig Yado be'Taharaso", which Rebbi Yehudah interprets as Machshir, and which therefore pertains to the Asham. What is the Asham Machshir him for?

(c)Whereas according to Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov, "be'Yom Taharaso refers to what causes him to become Tahor. What does this refer to?

(d)What is he Tahor for?

(e)How will we then explain "ve'Im Dal Hu"?

10)

(a)To explain why we do not Darshen "Hu" like we did by Erchin, we establish the Din by Metzora as a Gezeiras ha'Kasuv ("Asher Tasig Yado be'Taharaso"), only the Tana'im argue over how to interpret the Pasuk. Rebbi Shimon (Chatas) learns his ruling - from the fact that the Pasuk writes "Vechiper alav ha'Kohen" immediately prior to the Pasuk of the Metzora Ani.

(b)According to Rebbi Yehudah and Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov, the criterion lies in the Pasuk "Asher Tasig Yado be'Taharaso", which Rebbi Yehudah interprets as Machshir, and which therefore pertains to the Asham, which is Machshir him - to enter the Mikdash and to eat Kodshim (when they place the blood of the Asham on his thumb, his big toe and on the middle joint of his ear) .

(c)Whereas according to Rebbi Eliezer ben Ya'akov, "be'Yom Taharaso" refers to what causes him to become Tahor - the two live birds ...

(d)... and he is Tahor - to shave off his hair.

(e)And we Darshen "ve'Im Dal Hu" - like Rebbi and the Rabbanan respectively, as we explained earlier on the Amud.

11)

(a)We query the above explanation ('ad she'Yehei be'Makuso mi'Techilaso ve'ad Sofo') from Eidus, where the Torah also writes (in Vayikra) "ve'Hu Eid", yet Rebbi Yehudah does not Darshen there mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof. The Beraisa disqualifies Reuven from testifying for Shimon if he became his son-in-law, or if he became blind, a deaf-mute or senile, after witnessing the event in question. What does the Tana say in a case where his wife died, or he regained his eyesight, his speech, his hearing or his sanity before being called to testify?

(b)What does he conclude?

(c)We answer that this is because the Torah writes there "O Ra'ah" and "Im Lo Yagid". What do we learn from that?

(d)And the Torah writes "ve'Hu" to teach us the Din taught by another Beraisa. What does the Tana there say? about a case where someone makes a group of potential witnesses swear that ...

1. ... if they know of the testimony in hand, they will come and testify for him?

2. ... whoever knows of the testimony should come and swear? Why the difference?

11)

(a)We query the above explanation ('ad she'Yehei be'Makuso mi'Techilaso ve'ad Sofo') from Eidus, where the Torah also writes in Vayikra "ve'Hu Eid", yet Rebbi Yehudah does not Darshen there mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof. The Beraisa disqualifies Reuven from testifying for Shimon if he became his son-in-law, or if he became blind, a deaf-mute or senile after witnessing the event in question. The Tana rules that - in those cases where his wife died, or he regained his sight, his speech and hearing and his sanity before being called to testify - his testimony is valid.

(b)And he concludes with the rule that - whenever the beginning and the end of the testimony is be'Kashrus, the testimony is valid.

(c)We answer that this is because the Torah writes there "O Ra'ah" and "Im Lo Yagid" - establishing the criteria for testimony as the validity of the witnesses at the time of seeing the event and of acually testifying.

(d)And the Torah writes "ve'Hu" to teach us the Din taught by another Beraisa, where the Tana rules that - in a case where someone makes a group of potential witnesses swear that ...

1. ... if they know of the testimony in hand, they will come and testify for him - they are Patur, because he did not specify anyone in particular.

2. ... whoever knows of the testimony should come and swear they - are Chayav, because what he said is tantamount to specifying.

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