More Discussions for this daf
1. Doctors and Milah 2. Tosfos DH b'Leva'er, last words re Erusin 3. pesachim daf zayin
4. Chipus l'Or ha'Ner 5. Birkas Eirusin 6. Why do we say "al achilat matzah" and not "le'echol matzah"?
7. Differences in the Beraisos 8. Correction 9. Berachos Before Mitzvos
10. בעת ההיא אחפש את ירושלים בנרות 11. בדיקה לאור הנר 12. חילוקים בברייתות
13. רש״י ד״ה וכי לא סגי
DAF DISCUSSIONS - PESACHIM 7

Meir Eliezer Bergman asks:

At the end of Tos 7a DH Bilvaer, Tosfos says that we make the Birkas Erusin after the Erusin. Can you explain this please? - we give the ring after the brochos (unless Tosfos refers to the Bedeken?)

Meir Eliezer Bergman, Manchester UK

The Kollel replies:

Mark Eliezer, it is very good to hear from you again!

1) Our custom is not like Tosfos. Our custom follows the Rambam Hilchos Ishus 3:23 who writes:-

"Anyone who does kidushin with a woman....must make a brocho before the kidushin.....in the same way that one makes a blessing on all the Mitzvos; and afterwards he performs the kidushin. If he performed kidushin without making a berocho he should not make the brocho after the kidushin. This would be a "brocho levatolo", since the kidushin has already taken place".

2) Of course the Gemara here 7b states in the name of Shmuel that the brocho on all Mitzvos must be said before the Mitzvah is performed, but Tosfos holds that this only applies when the person doing the Mitzvah is the one saying the blessing. Since it is the chosson who is doing the Mitzvah of getting married, but he is not the one making the berocho, it follows that according to Tosfos the Birkas Erusin can be said after the Erusin. The Rambam does not make this distinction of Tosfos, and maintains that the berocho must always be said before the Mitzvah.

3) However there still seems to be a contradiction concerning our custom, since Tosfos in the name of Rabeinu Tam compares the berocho "Lehachniso"; that we make at the bris milah; to the brocho of erusin at the wedding. Our custom is to say this berocho after the bris has been done, so why do we say Birkas Erusin before giving the ring?

4) The Bach, on the Tur Yoreh Deah #265 DH uM'Sh veRashbam, explains why there is not a contradiction in the fact that we follow the Rambam at the Chupah, whilst we follow Rabeinu Tam at the Bris Milah. The difference is that after giving the ring the Mitzvah of Erusin has been completed, but when the Mohel does the Milah he is only half way through the Mitzvah since he has not yet done ?????; to uncover the flesh at the area of circumcision. The Mishnah Shabbos top 137b states that if one does Milah without Periyah this is equivalent to not performing Milah at all. Therefore we can still say the berocho "Lehachniso" since we are still in the middle of the Mitzvah as long as Periyah has not been done.

Chanukah Sameach

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply about Bedeken:

1) The Bach (on the Tur Even Ha'Ezer #61 DH Ha-Ish) writes that according to Tosfos, "Bedeken"; where the groom veils the bride; is in fact Chupah, not Erusin. The source for this is Tosfos Yoma 13b DH leChada who writes that the Chuppah of a virgin bride is when she goes out with the "hinuma"; the veil. Bach writes that the chosson goes towards the Kallah together with the Rabbi and the distinguished members of the community. The chosson holds the head covering of the bride, together with the Rav.

2) This occasion takes place before the kidushin, and one does not yet make a berocho at this stage. Bach cites the Mordecai Kesubos #132, who explains according to this, the words of Birkas Erusin. We say "Who sanctifies His people Yisroel through Chupah and Kidushin". Why do we mention Chupah before Kidushin? Surely Chupah comes after kidushin, since the latter means putting the ring on the finger?! Mordecai explains that Chupah is in fact not what we normally call Chupah, but rather the ceremony of handing over the kallah to the chosson for him to cover her hair. According to this Chupah comes before Kidushin, but the berocho is only said at the kidushin.

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

Sources for my first answer:

I will just add that, bs'd, what I wrote is stated briefly by the Maharshal in Chochmas Shlomo; on the Tosfos; that our custom in this region does not follow Tosfos; and by the Maharam, who writes that our custom is to say birkas erusin before erusin (Maharam adds that one should look at the Tur Even Ha'Ezer #34). I also saw in Hagahos veChidushim at the back of the Gemara, that they cite the Yaavetz (Rav Yaakov Emden) who writes the same as the Maharam; that the Minhag is not like Tosfos; and refers us to the Tur.

Dovid Bloom