It seems there are many different opinions from geonim and rishonim about whether and how many underage boys may be counted for a minyan. Sometimes the view depends on a person being chayav in tefila. Yet we know children can be chayav in lulav and tefillin below 13, and Yemenites let children davven as chazan and have aliyas! Therefore, it appears there is no overriding principle precluding children from being part of a minyan, though some rishonim do not explain why only one, or two, or even four, and why not a majority (except maybe R. Hai Gaon). And the age of maturity at 13 relates to having children, and not davka to following the mitzvos or abstaining from lo taaseh mitzvos (aside from statements that a child is only chayav in Beis Din from 13).
IF this has something to do with da'as, then there is the obvious conclusion that non-frum Jews have no real daas to understand mitzvos, and therefore must have a din of being patur at Beis Din like a katan before 13!! And certainly patur like a boy before 20 in the Beis Din shel Mala! What do you think of this idea and the general notion about counting boys in a minyan? After all, sometimes people are waiting and waiting for a ninth and tenth man to davven, and there is no time to wait. Why not simply rely on the shitas that allow a group of 6 or 8 men to have kriyas hatorah, etc. with the added two or even four boys who come with their fathers anyway (even babies!)?!
David Goldman, USA
1) Children are not obligated mid'Oraisa in Lulav and Tefilin before the age of 13. The Gemara in Sukah (end of 2b) states that the Chiyuv for a child to eat in a Sukah is only mid'Rabanan. Rashi there (DH mid'Rabanan) writes that the Rabanan required a child to become accustomed to performing Mitzvos so that he should become educated in Mitzvos.
2) I do not claim to be an expert in Yemenite customs, but I find it difficult to believe that they let children serve as Chazan, because the Mishnah here (24a) states that a minor cannot "pass in front of the Teivah," i.e. he cannot be the Chazan. The Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 8:11) writes that a child cannot do "Pores Al Shema" until he develops two pubic hairs after he has reached 13 years of age. The Magid Mishneh adds that he also may not be a Chazan.
3) The Teshuvos ha'Rosh (16:1) writes that it is a Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai that from the age of 13 years and one day, a person is liable for punishment for transgressing the Torah. The Chayei Adam (66:1) writes that we derive from the verse, "A man or woman who commits any sin" (Bamidbar 5:6), that a minor is not punished for transgressions.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
Now to the issue of how many underage boys may be counted for a Minyan: I am going to consider a scenario where 6 adult Jewish males are on a ship in the middle of the Pacific ocean and 4 boys under Bar Mitzvah are also on the ship. If we do not permit the 4 to combine for a Minyan, everyone on the ship will be without a Minyan for weeks.
1) Let us look at the sources that would permit Kadish and Kedushah, etc., to be said in such circumstances. The Gemara in Berachos (47b) tells us that Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi said that even though one cannot make a Zimun with a baby in his cot, one may join the baby as "Snif" for 10. The Ba'al ha'Me'or there (35b in the pages of the Rif) writes that the Halachah follows Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi, and, in addition, one may also combine the baby to make up a Minyan of 10 for Tefilah. The Ba'al ha'Me'or adds that not only may one combine one minor to the Minyan, but one may also combine 2, 3, or 4. As long as the majority are adults, one is entitled to make use of the children. The Ba'al ha'Me'or argues that his Psak fits well with the words of the Gemara. The above statement of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi makes no mention of 9. In this way, it is different from the other statement of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi in our Sugya -- that 9 and a slave may combine to make a Minyan. The fact that the Gemara does not mention 9 when referring to combining the child proves that children are better than slaves, and even 4 children can help make the Minyan.
2) Thus, we already have one major Rishon, the Ba'al ha'Me'or, who would allow Kadish and Kedushah on our ship. No we go to another important Rishon, the "Shut Min ha'Shamayim" ("Responsa from Heaven"), written by Rebbi Yakov of Morish, based on questions that he asked, and answers he received, from Above. In #53 he asked the following question: In a place where there are not 10 adult males available to make up a Minyan, is one allowed to combine minors who have already reached the age of Chinuch, such as 10 or 11 year-old boys? Rebbi Yakov argued that possibly it is permitted, because the Mitzvah of Chinuch is d'Rabanan and the Mitzvah of Tefilah is also d'Rabanan. The answer he received was: "The little ones with the adults; may Hash-m add onto you" (see Tehilim 115:13-14). We learn from there that one may combine the children to make up a Minyan.
3) One would normally be somewhat wary about a book based on questions asked from Heaven. After all, we have a rule that "Lo ba'Shamayim Hi" -- the Torah is not in Heaven. However, the Shibulei ha'Leket (a widely-accepted Rishon), in his section on Tefilah (#9), does cite the Shut Min ha'Shamayim on this point, and refers to the author as "the Tzadik Rebbi Yakov." This Teshuvah of Shut Min ha'Shamayim is also cited by the Teshuvas ha'Radbaz 8:11 and Teshuvas Maharsham 3:162, who write that in case of need one may sometimes rely on it. See also Hagahos Maimoniyos, Hilchos Berachos 5:7 (#6), who writes that it is proper and appropriate to be stringent and never combine a minor for a Minyan, but in case of need one may be lenient.
4) From the above Poskim I think we may have suggested that there may be room to be lenient on our ship scenario. According to Ba'al Hamaor one could use 4 babies, whilst according to Shut Min Hahsmayim one could use 10-11 year old boys.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I made a mistake about children as chazan. It's just for being a Baal koreh.
I don't understand how the Rosh makes the argument for a halacha leMoshe mi Sinai if this idea for 13 years old never appears in Chazal.
Finally, I don't understand the problem with minyanim relying on the lenient opinions to allow several children to be included in a minyan when necessary! It's better than waiting forever, or canceling the minyan entirely, not having krias hatorah etc.
I also don't understand the Chayey Adam. Does his source come from. Chazal? Because by itself we would not know that the posuk refers to being liable at davka 13 years old, and if we already know that it is 13 from other sources anyway why is this drash necessary?
What difference would it make as to the number of people, why davka the majority of adults (6)? Let's say you have 3 men, 6 boys 10 years old and a baby. Is it actually assur to have kriyas haTorah or kedusha in that circumstance? Or what about 6 men and 4 women (?!). There is no hard and fast rule from Chazal about this, if I understand correctly.
David G
1) A child being a Ba'al Korei is a different issue. The Mishnah in Megilah 24a is a source that a minor can read the Torah. The Pri Megadim (cited by the Mishnah Berurah in Sha'ar ha'Tziyun 282:16) understands that this means he may be the Ba'al Korei. On the contrary, I could argue that the fact that the Yemenites allow a child only to be a Ba'al Korei proves that for other aspects of Tefilah a child does not qualify.
2) The age of 13 does apear in Chazal. It appears in the Mishnah in Pirkei Avos (5:21): "A thirteen-year-old for Mitzvos."
3) Rav Moshe Feinstein zt'l (in Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim 2:18) does permit including a minor if, otherwise, the Minyan in a particular Shul will be abolished. However, there is a limit to the extent to which one may apply the Din that a Minyan means 10, which is why I only suggested being lenient and combining 4 in the very extreme case of the ship in the Pacific Ocean with 6 adults and 4 children.
4) The Torah always follows the majority (see Shemos 23:2, "Acharei Rabim"). Therefore, if one has less than 6 adult males no one would say that constitues a Minyan.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
As I have mentioned, I do not claim to know anything about Yemenite customs, but I am told that they practice what it says in the Gemara and what the Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 12:17) writes, "A child who knows how to read and who knows who we bless, counts as one of those called up to the Torah."
Children are called up to the Torah and read their own portion.
This is simply what the custom was in the time of the Gemara. It may be that this is what you heard, David, that the Yemenite custom is for children to be the Ba'al Korei. However, it does not necessarily represent a support for the opinion of the Pri Megadim that a child may be the Ba'al Korei to read other people's portions also.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I assume then that at least theoretically one could rely on lenient opinions even if there were several boys, or even several females to complete the minyan.
Perhaps even if the adult males were not the majority.
Since social circumstances affect the ages described in Pirkei Avos 5:21 isn't it conceivable that the case of chiyuv Mitzvos could also vary based on circumstances? So that for some boys a chiyuv is at 12 and others at 14?
1) I would agree that, theoretically, in extreme circumstances one could rely on the opinion of the Ba'al ha'Me'or (Berachos 35b of the pages of the Rif) that four boys (even baby boys) may complete a Minyan.
2) The Gemara in Nidah (beginning of 46a) states that if a boy does not possess two pubic hairs he is not considered an adult even though he is 13. Accordingly, some 14 year-olds might not combine l'Chatchilah with the minyan. However, there is the "Chazakah d'Rava" (mentioned in Nidah 46a) that if a boy is 13 we assume that he has two pubic hairs unless he has been examined and found not to have them.
Conversely, Rav Moshe Feinstein zt'l writes in Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim 2:18) that if there is a concern that if one does not combine a minor to a Minyan the shul Minyan will fold up as a result, then this is considered a "She'as ha'Dechak" and one may make use of the minor. Even if there is another shul where the other nine could go to Daven, Rav Moshe also allows combining the child, because people who live far away from the other shul might not go there.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom