More Discussions for this daf
1. The Chachamim's translation of "Bera'am" 2. Greek Translation 3. Was Talmai Hamelech's 72 Torahs Kosher?
4. Torah in Greek 5. Translating the Torah to Greek 6. The story of the 72 sages who translated the Torah into Greek
7. a Translation or Transliteration? . 8. Kedushas ha'Mikdash 9. שמעתי כשהיו בונים בהיכל עשו קלעים
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MEGILAH 9

chaim asked:

ok, so... in Megillah, 9a, in discussing the mishna that says "even books of scripture, they did not permit to be written in any foreign language other than greek," the gemara explains that it only applies to a Torah scroll (and not the rest of scripture) because of "the incident with king ptolemy." it then goes on to explain how he gathered 72 elders and kept them apart and had them translate the Torah to greek and how HaKadosh Baruch'Hu "placed counsel in each of their hearts" and they arrived at a common translation that even accounted for slight variations to appease or not confuse the king.

my first question is: why was it right for the elders to do this? foreseeing the effect of translating a Sefer Torah, shouldn't the elders have chose to be put to death (assuming that was an option), rather than alter the words of the Torah and spread them to a people who could potentially use them for bad things? they must have known that there was something wrong, but what makes it even more interesting is that Hash-m assisted them in the task.

now, two days after reading this, (and by a pretty amazing "divine timing" of sorts) it was the tenth of teves. it was getting close to sunset, so i decided to go on the internet and find out why i hadn't eaten anything all day besides that the jewish calendar said so. i found this article:

http://torah.org/learning/yomtov/asarabteves/vol2no25.html

these two paragraphs talk about the negative aspects of the translating:

In one of the Selichos (special penitential prayers) for the Tenth of Teves, we find a list of the tragedies that befell the Jewish people in the month of Teves. "For these three events," the author of the prayer writes, "I instituted a fast: (on the eighth day of Teves) the Grecian king forced me to translate the Torah into Greek...I was reproached on the ninth...on this day was torn away the giver of beautiful works, Ezra the Scribe." The third event the author describes is the siege of Jerusalem, which occurred on the tenth of Teves. Rav Matisyahu Solomon writes that by understanding the underlying connection between these three events, we will understand how we are still feeling the effects of the Tenth of Teves.

The translation of the Torah into Greek caused irreparable damage. The Torah was given to us in one language and one language only. The nuances, subtleties, and implications of the specific words chosen are lost in translation. The "70 facets of Torah" which our Sages wrote about can't readily be seen or gleaned from a translation. In addition, when one translates, one is forced to chose a specific interpretation that he or she feels best express the meaning of the original words. Alternate meanings or interpretations are discarded. It was this aspect of the translation of the Torah that was most harmful. It gave license for people to begin explaining the Torah as they saw fit, ignoring other relevant and applicable meanings that came from Sinai as well. The teachings of the Sages were disregarded, and the holy words of the Torah were corrupted. For this reason, a fast was warranted.

so... now it is pretty certain that translating the Torah into greek was a bad thing in the course of jewish history. so, why do our sages in the mishna permit a Torah scroll to be written in greek?! it would seem as if the mishna should say the opposite explicitly - that a kosher Torah may not be written in any language, and ESPECIALLY may not be written in greek.

that gemara goes on to explain that the reason that the mishna says specifically greek, is due to a verse in Baraisheet, 9:27: "May Hash-m extend Yafet and He will dwell in the tents of Shem." assuming that the elders were aware of this verse, that would explain why they deemed it alright to translate into greek, rather than refuse to do so with their lives, and that also explains why Hash-m assisted them in doing so. this essentially answers the first two questions i've asked, although i'm still a bit confused as to why the gemera put the whole story of king ptolemy in there, if it did not have much bearing on answering: why the greek? regardless, i'll accept this answer for now.

so, now there's just one problem left: if everything involved with translating the Torah into greek is 100% kosher because of this verse, and the time in history when Jews actually had a chance to follow this verse was surrounded by a great miracle that all 72 elders came out with the same translation, then why does it mark the first of three things that lead to the siege of Jerusalem and eventual exile?

chaim, storrs, ct, usa

The Kollel replies:

Firstly, the Gemara cites the story of the Greek translation (the Septuagint) according to the opinion of R. Yehudah, who permits writing a Sefer Torah in Greek on account of it.

The reason based on the Pasuk in Bereishis is the one the Gemara gives according to R. Shimon ben Gamliel in our Mishnah. See also Turei Even and Tehilah le'Yonah.

Regarding your question concerning the apparent discrepancy between the miracle on the one hand, and the calamity on the other, it seems to me that both are in fact correct. In short term, the miracle that occurred probably saved the lives of the seventy-two elders (and who knows how many other lives and harsh decrees were spared). On the other hand, in the long term, the translation was a calamity, as you wrote.

However, let me add a vital detail that, to my mind, will help resolve the discrepancy. But first, another question.

What are the Tana'im arguing about anyway, since the Torah has already taught us that Moshe Rabeinu wrote the Torah in seventy languages (see Rashi Devarim 27:8)?

It therefore seems to me that translating the Torah accurately into the other languages is in itself, a good thing (even according to those Tana'im who hold that one cannot fulfill the Mitzvah of Leining from it), and the dangers of mistranslation only occur when the translation is incorrect, as was the case with the Septuagint.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler