More Discussions for this daf
1. Comparing Kidushin to Gitin 2. Through a Shtar 3. Three ways
4. Tosfos DH Hacha 5. Kesef 6. Kidushin Against A Woman's Wishes
7. Darko Shel Ish la'Chazor 8. Misas ha'Ba'al 9. Kicha Ikrei Kinyan
10. Use of Derech in Masculine and Feminine Terms 11. Kesef as Kidushin 12. Kicha Ikrei Kinyan
13. Tosfos DH I Nami 14. First Tosfos here and in Kesuvos 15. Tosfos DH I Nami
16. Parallels to Yibum and the 3 Methods 17. Who Owns the Ring 18. Kidushin 002: Tosfos DH b'Perutah
19. Derech-Davar 20. Conjunction of multiple acquisitions 21. Kidushin against a woman's will
22. Comparing the term "ha'Ishah Niknis" to "ha'Ish Mekadesh" 23. Get for Yibum 24. Eirusin
25. ha'Isha Niknes 26. Erusin vs. Nisu'in 27. Hiskadshi Li in Rashi
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 2

R Karaguilla asks:

Shalom u Bracha

Why does th gmara in the first dapim tries so much to understand derech/ davar Shalom and/shlosha?

Why is that so chashuv?

Tks

Binyomin K

Brazil

The Kollel replies:

It seems to me that the Mishnah and Gemara here are teaching us a lesson about ?????? "Tzniyut".

At the end of the discussion on 2b the Gemara states ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? "Those [kesef and shtar] are necessary for biyah". The Mishnah and the Gemara teach us that the purpose of kidushin is biyah but they do that in the most subtle way.

The Gemara 2b says ?÷? ??? ?????? ??? "The Mishnah wants to use the word 'Derech'". But why did the Mishnah want to say Derech? After a lengthy discussion the Gemara says "Why did the Mishnah state "Shalosh" because it wants to say "Derachim"; but why not say "Devarim" and say "Shloshah"? The Gemara answers that the Mishnah wants to say Biyah which is called Derech. So it all comes down to the Mishnah aiming to say Biyah, but it does so in the most modest and hidden way possible.

In fact the Mishnah itself listed Biyah as the last way of doing kidushin because the Mishnah wanted to mention the ways of kidushin in a modest way, so it put Biyah as the last on the list.

Chazal are teaching us that we should speak in the most refined and modest way.

This reminds me of the way that Masechet Pesachim starts. The very first word in the Mishnah is "Or"; Light, but the Gemara explains immediately that Rav Yehudah says that this means night. Again, after a lengthy discussion, on Pesachim 3a the Gemara asks why the Mishnah did not say explicitly "night"? The Gemara answers that the reason is because a person should not let his mouth utter something bad. Night is a frightening thing. The correct way to start off a Masechet of Shas is not to mention this dark time right at the very beginning. That is why Masechet Pesachim started with the positive word "light" and that is why Masechet Kidushin; which is really about how the Torah allows a husband and wife to be together; does its utmost to discuss this in the most modest way possible.

1) The Bartenura can help us understand this. He writes that even though there is no way of performing kidushin which is as explicit in the Torah as kidushei biyah; nevertheless the Chachamim said that if someone does kidushin through biyah he is punished, so that the children of Israel should not be immodest.

He is referring to the Gemara Kidushin 12b where we learn that Rav punished anyone who did kidushin with biyah. So we see the paradox; that biyah is both the best and the worst. On the one hand, it is tha classic way of doing kidushin according to the Torah, but on the other hand, in practice, it is the worst way in the time of the Gemara.

Presumably, in the time of the Torah, people were on a higher spiritual level and they only had in mind the Mitzvah when doing kidushei biyah, but later on the level declined and people had the wrong intentions.

2) At any rate, we can now understand why the Mishnah wants to hint that the chief way of doing kidushin according to the Torah is biyah, and consequently uses the word Derachim, which has a special connection with Biyah and avoids the word Devarim. It follows that shalosh is used; not shlosha.

However, for reasons of modesty this all must remain only a hint.

The Gemara is teaching us that all Halachot are hinted at in the Mishnah:-

1) I posed this question to a Talmid Chacham and he gave an answer based on the Gemara Nidah 62b where Rabbi Yochanan cited a Braisa taught by Rabbi Chiya. Resh Lakish replied to him that one cannot prove anything from this braisa because if Rebbe Yehuda Hanasi did not know what is stated there, then how could R. Chiya (who was a talmid of Rebbe Yehuda Hanasi) know it?! Tosfos there DH Rabbi asks that according to this one can never ask a question on a Mishnah from one of the many Braisos that were taught by Rabbi Chiya or by Rabbi Oshiya because we could always say that if they go against the Mishnah this must mean that Rebbe Yehudah Hanasi disagrees with them, since there is nothing that Rabbi Chiya knew that Rebbe did not know?! Tosfos replies that the answer to this question was given by Ilfa in Gemara Ta'anis 21a and Kesuvos 69b that whatever R. Chiya or R. Oshiya said has a source in the Mishnah. In the Gemara Nidah 62b it was obvious to Resh Lakish that there was no hint; anywhere in the Mishnah; for what R. Chiya said. That is how Resh Lakish knew that R. Chiya's statement could not be reliable.

2) We learn from Tosfos that all the Halachot that were stated after the Mishnah had already been hinted at in the Mishnah; if one knows how to reveal the hint. This is what the Gemara is teaching us right at the beginning of Masechet Kidushin; that every Halacha that we will learn, bs'd, in the Masechet, has already been hinted at in the Mishnah.

I asked this question of a different Talmid Chacham, and on the spot he made an interesting suggestion:- ????? ???? ??????! - the Gemara at the beginning of Kidushin deliberately made things longer in order to give us more Torah!

1) This is, of course, a verse from Yeshayahu 42:21 "Hash-m sought to make the Torah great and glorious". We see that sometimes things could be stated in a shorter way, but the Torah or Chazal made it longer.

There is a source for this from Gemara Chulin 66b where the Gemara cites a Mishnah that any fish which has scales certainly has fins. The Gemara asks that the Torah should have written that any fish with scales is kosher, and it would not be necessary to write that it must also possess fins, because it anyway would? The Gemara answers "Yagdil Torah veYaadir"; the Torah could have just mentioned scales but an extra word "fin" was written, to give us more Torah!

2) I found a Gemara in Bava Metzia 13b where the Gemara made a Diyuk. Tosfos there DH HaMibnai writes that the Gemara did not need to make a diyuk but instead could have cited an explicit Braisa, but it is the way of the Gemara to do this. Chochmas Manoach explains that the reason that it is the way of the Gemara is because of "Yagdil Torah veYaadir". Chochmas Manoach also writes that the reason the Gemara does this is because of "Drosh veKabel Schar"; we will receive a reward for learning the extra Torah. This we find, of course, in this week's Parsha Ki Teitzei; that one opinion in the Gemara Sanhedrin 71a says that the rebellious son described in this week's Parsha never actually existed and never will exist, but the Torah gave us this Parsha so that we can learn about and be rewarded for learning Torah.

3) So the suggestion is that there may be things in the Gemara at the beginning of Kidushin that could have been taught in a more concise way but sometimes the Gemara wants to give us a reward by learning lots of Torah!

Dovid Blooom