1) I believe there is a source which implies that Rabbi Yochanan was not the grandson of Acher. Rashi in Sanhedrin (96a, DH Tava) explains why, in many places in Shas, Rebbi Yochanan is referred to as "Bar Nafcha." Rashi gives the simple explanation that Rebbi Yochanan was the son of a blacksmith ("Nafcha"). My argument is that if it would be true that Rebbi Yochanan was the grandson of Acher, it is more likely that the latter fact would have been incorporated into Rebbi Yochanan's name, instead of telling us that he was the son of a blacksmith, which is far more mundane.

2) I did not find in Yoma 82b, in the account of the question asked to Rebbi about the pregnant woman, any mention of Rebbi being interrupted in the middle of davening in order to answer this question. However, a Rav is expected to answer such questions not only for members of his family. My proof for this is from Maseches Semachos, chapter 7, where Rebbi Shimon told Rebbi Yishmael that the reason why he was being punished by being killed by the Romans, was because a woman asked him a Halachic question when he was in the middle of a meal, or asleep, and he did not interrupt to answer the question. One learns from this that a Rav is expected to answer all questions asked of him, at all times.

3) I suspect that you might be referring to the Sifri (printed in the Malbim Chumash) in Parshas v'Zos ha'Berachah, on Devarim 34:7 (which states that Moshe Rabeinu died at the age of 120). The Sifri says that Moshe Rabeinu was one of four who died at the age of 120. The other three were Hillel the Elder, Raban Yochanan ben Zakai, and Rebbi Akiva. However, it does not say there that the Amora, Rebbi Yochanan, mentioned in Chagigah 15b, also died at age 120.

4) One more source is Tosfos in Kesuvos (8a, DH Rav), who indeed writes that Rebbi Yochanan was an Amora. However, if one looks carefully at Tosfos there, one sees that Rebbi Yochanan was not far from being considered as on the same level as a Tana. In addition, Tosfos writes that there was another Rebbi Yochanan who was a Tana, and who is mentioned as such in Nazir 65a.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

1) Reb Tuvya, I think we see from the Gemara that there is a big difference between Rebbi Yakov and Rebbi Yochanan. As you point out, the Gemara in two places tells us very clearly that Rebbi Yakov was Acher's grandson. We see that the Gemara does not neglect to tell us such an important fact. If Rebbi Yochanan would have been Acher's grandson the Gemara surely would have told us this also. Instead, what the Gemara did say, according to Rashi in Sanhedrin, is that Rebbi Yochanan was the son of a blacksmith. This suggests that Rebbi Yochanan possessed modest roots. If Rebbi Yochanan would have been the grandson of the

famous Acher, it is much more likely that the Gemara would have mentioned this rather than hinting that Rebb Yochanan came from a simple background.

2) I think you would need to bring a stronger proof that Amtei d'Rebbi was Acher's daughter. We should not forget that Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi was an extremely wealthy man. The Gemara in Gitin (59a) tells us that there was no Torah scholar from the time of Moshe Rabeinu who was as wealthy as Rebbi. Therefore,

there must have been many women who asked him for financial help, so the request of Acher's daughter was in no way unusual (see also Bava Basra 8a, concerning the request of Rebbi Yonasan ben Amram). In addition, because he was so wealthy he no doubt had many servants. We find also that many women are wise and learned -- this is not so unusual -- so just because Amtei d'Rebbi was learned, this does not necessarily mean she was

Acher's daughter.

3) However, what is very possible is that Rebbi Yakov was the son of Acher's daughter, mentioned in Chagigah 15b. It would be interesting to see if any of the Mefarshim talk about this.

4) I saw something else which might be relevant to our question. This is in Sefer Kochavei Or (near the end of chapter 1, DH v'Ka'asher), by Rav Yitzchak Blazer zt'l, the Talmid of Rav Yisrael Salanter zt'l (the Sefer is often published together with Or Yisrael by Rav Yisrael Salanter). He writes that 140 or 150 years passed between the death of Rebbi Meir and the death of Rebbi Yochanan (he proves this from various sources). So the smoke was coming out of Acher's Kever for about 150 years. According to this, even if Rebbi Yochanan was a descendant of Acher, he was too long after to be a direct grandson.

Reb Tuvya, Yasher Ko'ach for your very interesting He'oros which are helping us to get the genealogy straight.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

Reb Tuvya, I saw something else which might be relevant to our question. This is in sefer Kochavei Or (near the end of chapter 1, DH v'Ka'asher), by Rav Yitzchak Blazer zt'l, the Talmid of Rav Yisrael Salanter zt'l (the Sefer is often published together with Or Yisrael by Rav Yisrael Salanter). He writes that 140 or 150 years passed between the death of Rebbi Meir and the death of Rebbi Yochanan (he proves this from various sources). So the smoke was coming out of Acher's Kever for about 150 years. According to this, even if Rebbi Yochanan was a descendant of Acher, he was too long after to be a direct grandson.

Dovid Bloom

1) Reb Tuvya, the Roshei Yeshivos always used to say, "Brengt a Ra'ayah!" -- you have to bring a proof.

2) I did find sources which claim that it may not necessarily be the case that even Rebbi Yakov, who is mentioned in Kidushin 39b as the son of Acher's daughter, was in fact the grandaughter of Acher. The Maharatz Chiyus, at the very end of Maseches Chulin, cites the Talmud Yerushalmi in the second chapter of Chagigah, where the text reads that if Acher would have expounded the verse the same way as "Rebbi Yaakov did before him," he would not have gone on a bad way. The Maharatz Chiyus writes that it appears from this that Rebbi Yakov was older than Acher.

The Maharatz Chiyus continues that this text would appear to be more accurate, because we learn in Chagigah 15b that Rebbi wondered how Acher could have children or grandchildren, in light of the verse that says that evildoers will have no descendants. How, then, can we reconcile our text in Kidushin 39b that Rebbi Yakov was the grandson of Acher?

3) I will leave the above problem for another time, and will now look more at the relationship between Rebbi and Rebbi Meir, which you referred to based on Eruvin 13b.

We find in Gitin 14b that Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi (i.e. Rebbi) said a Halachah in the name of Rebbi Yakov who in turn said this Halachah in the name of Rebbi Meir. Now, it may be possible to find out a bit more about this Rebbi Yaakov, who was a teacher of Rebbi and a Talmid of Rebbi Meir. See the Talmud Yerushalmi in the last chapter of Pesachim, very near the beginning of the chapter, which tells us that Rebbi was a Talmid of Rebbi Yaov ben Kodshai.

4) Now listen to something fascinating. A friend of mine, Rav Meir Berentzweig of Yeshivat ha'Ran (Ramot Dalet, Yerusahalyim), wrote a sefer called Otzaros Megadim. In Parshas Bo, page 255, he cites the Magen Avos, written by the Tashbetz (who lived at the end of the period of the Rishonim) on Pirkei Avos 2:21. The Tashbetz cites Kidushin 39b as reporting that it was Rebbi Yakov ben Kodshai, the son of Acher's daughter, who made the Derashah that would have saved Acher. Presumably, the Rebbi Yakov ben Kodshai mentioned in the Yerushalmi Pesachim as Rebbi's teacher, and the Rebbi Yakov ben Kodshai mentioned in Kidushin 39b according to the text of the Tashbetz, are one and the same person. This means that Rebbi's teacher was Acher's grandson. (I am not going to try to reconcile this with what I wrote above in #2; it would seem that there are contradictory texts involved here.)

5) Since we see from the Gemara in Chulin 137b that, at least to begin with, Rebbi Yochanan was a very junior Talmid of Rebbi and sat 17 rows behind Rav in Rebbi's Shi'ur, there was a very significant time gap between Acher and Rebbi Yochanan.

Reb Tuvya, this certainly is an interesting topic!

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

(a) Rebbi Yakov cites Rebbi Yochanan in literally dozens of places (Shabbos 145b, Pesachim 25a, 91b, Moed Katan 5a, 6a 24a etc.). I would assume that Rebbi Yakov is Rebbi Yakov bar Idi, who often cites Rebbi Yochanan (Shabbos 150a, Kesuvos 5a, Eruvin 46b, Chulni 57b.)

By the way, the name of Rebbi Yakov's father was Kurshai, not Kodshai (Yerushalmi Shabbos 10:5; see also Midrash Rabah Bereishis 17:1, Koheles 4:6). See also Gitin 14b and Tosefta Avodah Zarah 5:4, where Rebbi cites his mentor Rebbi Yakov. In Horayos 13b Rebbi also appears to be readying himself to learn from Rebbi Yakov. (-M. Kornfeld)

(b) The question of the Maharatz Chiyus is that Chagigah 15b tells us that Rebbi cursed Acher and said that he would not have any son or grandson or any remnant in his dwelling places. If so, how is it possible that after a curse like this that Acher should have a Talmid from amongst his descendants?! Maharatz Chiyus implies that even though Acher's daughter was in front of Rebbi, nevertheless after such a curse Acher would not have the merit that subsequently there would be any scholars amongst his descendants. Therefore, the Maharatz Chiyus questions the text in Kidushin 39b that Rebbi Yakov was Acher's grandson and prefers the text of the Yerushalmi Chagigah that it was a Rabbi Yakov before the time of Acher who made the Derashah that Kidushin 39b attributes to Acher's grandson.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

Concerning the name of the father of Rebbi's teacher:

1) I did a search on Otzar ha'Chochmah for the word "Kurshai" and "Kodshai," and received a few results. A few authors have noted that there appear to be two different texts, because in some sources (for example, Yerushalmi Shabbos 10:5 and Yerushalmi Pesachim 10:1) the text is "Kudshai," while in other texts (for example, Bereshis Rabah 17:1 and Vayikra Rabah 3:1) it is spelled "Kurshai."

2) The Pnei Moshe, on Yerushalmi Shabbos 10:5, writes that the "Rabo Muvhak" of Rebbi was Rebbi Yakov ben Kodshai. The Rambam, in his introduction to Mishneh Torah, writes that the three teachers of Rebbi were (a) his father, Raban Shimon ben

Gamliel, (b) Rebbi Elazar ben Shamua, (c) Rebbi Shimon. It is interesting that the Rambam makes no mention of Rebbi Yakov ben Kurshai.

3) Another fascinating thing is that the Tashbetz, in Magen Avos to Pirkei Avos 2:21 (which I cited in an earlier reply) has the text in Kidushin 39b that it was Rebbi Yakov ben Kudshai, the grandson of Acher, who made the Derashah which, had Acher made it, he would not have left the Torah. According to this, Rebbi

was a Talmid of Acher's grandson, which certainly makes it difficult to understand how Rebbi in Chagigah 15b was amazed that Acher had any descendants!

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom