Most of your questions, I just dealt with yesterday, so I'll just send you an up-dated version of what I wrote then. The remaining questions I will deal with afterwards.

Your question is a good one. It bothered me too, as it no doubt, bothers just about everyone who learns this Gemara. However, you should not have quoted the Gemara in B'rachos (35b), since it is Rebbi Yishmael there who condones making a living. Rebbi Shimon is of the opinion that one should learn Torah exclusively, because if people work, 'What will then happen to Torah'? As a matter of fact, the Rashash connects R. Shimon here with his opinion there. Nor is there a problem as to how one would subsist without working, because, as R. Shimon explains in B'rachos, Hash-m would then ensure that their work would be carried out by others.

I'm not sure that R. Shimon and R. Elazar actually killed anyone (besides that old man and R. Yehudah ben Geirim), because the Gemara first describes how wherever they looked (not whoever they looked at) got burned, and then how whoever R. Elazar wounded, R. Shimon cured. No mention is made about killing anybody.

In any event, Hash-m's response clearly indicates that their actions were unacceptable.

Having said that, I will attempt to explain what they did by referring to the creation, where, as Rashi teaches us (end of 1:1) Hash-m first created the world with Midas ha'Din (the attribute of judgment, symbolized by the Name 'Elokim'), and then added Midas ha'Rachamim (His attribute of Mercy, symbolized by 'Hashem'), because He saw that it cannot exist on Midas ha'Din alone.

Similarly, the commentaries explain that when Ya'akov Avinu said to Hash-m "If Elokim will be with me ... " (Bereishis 28:20), he meant that he wanted Hash-m to deal with him only according to the Midas ha'Din (according to his deserts) without Rachamim.

Add to that, the principle that Hash-m punishes Tzadikim more stringently than ordinary people. Why is that? Because they possess a deeper understanding of sin and evil than others, and are therefore expected to avoid it more than them. To carry this a bit further, the greater a person is, the more he is able to perceive the slightest imperfection as

something terrible.

What therefore happened here was that having reached such a great level in the cave, R. Shimon and his son a. perceived not learning Torah as an unforgivable sin and b. they wanted the world to run according to the Midas ha'Din, in which case anyone who fails to live according to the strictest ideals must be punished. Bear in mind also, that just a little earlier on the same Amud, Rashi pointed out that someone who is idle from Torah is Chayav Misah.

From an ideal point of view, he may well have been right, only Hash-m reminded him that the world cannot exist on Midas ha'Din ('Did you leave the cave in order to destroy My world ... '?), to teach him that even if theoretically, he was one hundred per cent right (and everybody is really obligated to learn all the time), Hash-m had already decreed at the creation, that Midas ha'Din must be applied in conjunction with Midas Rachamim.

Later, R. Shimon went on to kill that old man and R. Yehudah ben Geirim, this time without Divine intervention, suggesting that what he did was with Hash-m's authority. Here too, he did not kill them without good reason, but because they both spoke Lashon ha'Ra, and we learned above that this is punishable by Misah (add to this that the one's Lashon ha'Ra was accompanied by Chillul Hash-m, the other's, achieved such dire results).

*You* wrote that R. Yehudah ben Geirim merely differed with R. Shimon's opinion about the Roman buildings. The Gemara however, says that he divulged the minutes of the meeting to his wife and to his Talmidim, via which it reached the ears of the Emperor, which the commentaries describe as Lashon ha'Ra.

One more point. The Gemara in Succah and Bava Basra, relates that when Yonasan ben Uziel used to learn Torah, any bird that flew above his head would be burned up by the fire of his Torah.

The commentaries point out that the same is not said about his Rebbe Hillel, despite that he was clearly greater than him. And they ascribe this to Hillel's power of restraint. So great was he, that he was able to contain the fire that he emitted as he learned, thereby preventing it from harming a bird. This by the way, is known as Tzimtzum, a Midah Which Hash-m applies in all his dealings with us.

I would compare R. Shimon when he came out of the cave to Yonasan ben Uziel, and after Hash-m had spoken to him, to Hillel.

1. A sound question. Let me begin by pointing out that R. Shimon was clearly happy with the bare minimum on which to subsist. Consequently, since he had clothes with which he could manage, he did not require more. Food of course, is different, One cannot make do with the same food a second time, so a continuous supply is needed.

True, Ya'akov Avinu asked for clothes too. But how do you know that he asked for more than one set, should the one he was wearing become worn out? And even if he did, he was living among people, in whose presence he had to look presentable. R. Shimon was alone with his son.

4. Why not assume that if Yehudah ben Geirim was innocent, no harm would have befallen him? As I wrote, he was Chayav Misah, and all R. Shimon did to evoke the Midas ha'Din, where the Midas ha'Din was due.

5. Nothing was hidden from Chazal, as the Gemara says in connection with a similar observation regarding ben Azai (quoting a Pasuk in Tehilim) "Hash-m reveals His secrets to those who fear Him.

Crude? I think its striking. Don't you agree that (given that R. Shimon did know how Zonos treat each other), it proves the point adequately? In fact, it renders the old man's behavior as all the more shocking (which only helps alleviate some of your other Kashyos).

Remember also, that when one views Zonos or anything else through Torah eyes, they become a vehicle of attaining the truth, so that all connotations of vulgarity disappear.

R. Eliezer Chrysler