12th Cycle dedication

CHULIN 112 (18 Tishrei) - dedicated by Reb Tuvya Marcus and family (Baltimore/Yerushalayim) in honor of the Yahrzeit of his father, Binyomin Leib ben Aharon Marcus.

1)

(a)Rav Dimi asked Rav Nachman whether it is permitted to place a jar of salt beside a jar of milk stew. Why might it be forbidden?

(b)What did he then ask him, after he replied that it was forbidden?

(c)What did Rav Nachman reply ...

1. ... to that?

2. ... initially, when Rav Dimi asked him why he ruled differently in the two cases?

(d)How did he subsequently explain his two rulings?

1)

(a)Rav Dimi asked Rav Nachman whether it is permitted to place a jar of salt beside a jar of milk stew - in case some of the milk stew falls into the salt without the owner's knowledge, and he subsequently uses the salt together with a meaty dish.

(b)After the latter replied that it was forbidden, he then asked him - the same She'eilah regarding placing a jar of salt next to a jar of vinegar.

(c)Rav Nachman's replied ...

1. ... that it is permitted.

2. ... when Rav Dimi asked him why he ruled differently in each of the two cases, he initially told him that - when he measures him a Kur of salt, he will give him an answer.

(d)He subsequently explained that - in the first case (involving salt, which is thick) the milk stew remains intact and recognizable, whereas in the second, a. it disintegrates in the vinegar and becomes Bateil, and b. it is not Nosein Ta'am either.

2)

(a)What did Rav Chin'na b'rei de'Rava mi'Pashrunya rule in the case where a dove fell into a jar of milk stew (which contained a lot of salt)?

(b)What did Rava exclaim when he heard that ruling?

(c)Why was it not forbidden because of Shmuel's principle Mali'ach, harei Hu ke'Rose'ach (in which case the dove ought to have absorbed some of the taste of the milk stew)?

2)

(a)When a dove fell into a jar of milk stew (partially comprising salt) Rav Chin'na b'rei de'Rava mi'Pashrunya ruled that - the doe was permitted.

(b)When Rava heard that ruling - he exclaimed that only Rav Chin'na b'rei de'Rava mi'Pashrunya would have issued such a (wise) ruling ...

(c)... because even though Shmuel declared that Mali'ach, Harei Hu ke'Rose'ach (in which case one might have thought that the dove absorbed some of the taste of the milk stew) - that is only if it is salted to the point that it is inedible, which was not the case here.

3)

(a)We qualify Rav Chin'na's ruling, however, confining it to where the bird is raw. What would be the Din if it is ...

1. ... roasted?

2. ... raw but contains cracks in its skin?

(b)Under which other circumstances is it forbidden even if its skin is not cracked?

3)

(a)We qualify Rav Chin'na's ruling, however, confining it to where the bird is raw. If it is ...

1. ... roasted - it requires peeling.

2. ... raw but contains cracks in its skin - it is forbidden ...

(b)... as it is even if its skin is not cracked - if it was previously cooked with spices.

4)

(a)What does Rav Nachman Amar Shmuel say about a loaf of bread on which one cuts a piece of roasted meat?

(b)He only forbids it however, under three conditions. The meat must be red and the juice must have gone right through the bread. What is the third condition?

(c)Shmuel would throw the bread to his dog. What did Rav Huna do with it?

(d)If Rav Huna himself was forbidden to eat it, how could he give it to his slave?

(e)What did Rava used to do?

4)

(a)Rav Nachman Amar Shmuel rules that a loaf of bread on which one cuts a piece of roasted meat - is forbidden.

(b)He only forbids it however, under three conditions. The meat must be red, and the juice, which must have gone right through the bread - must also be thick (because if it is watery, it is not considered blood).

(c)Shmuel would throw the bread to his dog. Rav Huna - gave it to his slave.

(d)In fact, Rav Huna only declined to eat it - because he was finicky and was disgusted by it.

(e)Rava - used to eat it, referring to the juice as 'the wine of the meat'.

5)

(a)What does Rav Nachman say about placing a drip-tray underneath a piece of roasting meat to collect the gravy?

(b)How does one know when all the blood has drained according to Mar Zutra citing Rav Papa?

(c)On what grounds did Rav Ashi refute this?

(d)What can one then do to permit the gravy, according to Rav Ashi?

(e)Why does he mention specifically two grains of salt?

5)

(a)Rav Nachman permits placing a drip-tray underneath a piece of meat - only after all the blood has drained.

(b)One knows when all the blood has drained, Mar Zutra explains citing Rav Papa - when smoke begins to rise from the meat (or from the coals, because until that stage, the blood merely drips on them and extinguishes them).

(c)Rav Ashi refutes this however - by suggesting that perhaps the smoke only indicates that all the blood has drained from the bottom of the meat, but the blood from the top has yet to begin draining.

(d)According to Rav Ashi, one can permit the gravy - by placing two grains of salt in the tray, which will draw the blood, and then pouring the gravy gently into another receptacle.

(e)Rav Ashi mentions specifically two grains of salt - because a lot of salt will have the affect of causing the blood to become watery, in which case it will mix with the gravy.

112b----------------------------------------112b

6)

(a)Rav Acha b'rei de'Rav Ika queried Rav Ashi from the ruling of Shmuel that we cited earlier, where he forbade the loaf on which one cut meat. According to Rav Ashi, what ought Shmuel to have said?

(b)What did Rav Ashi reply?

6)

(a)Rav Acha b'rei de'Rav Ika queried Rav Ashi from the ruling of Shmuel that we cited earlier, where he forbade the loaf on which one cut meat. According to Rav Ashi, he asks, Shmuel ought to have said there too that - all the blood already drained during the roasting, and what enters the bread is only juice, and not blood.

(b)To which Rav Ashi replied that - in fact, some blood always remains in the meat after roasting, only whereas the fire is not able to extract it, the pressure of the knife is.

7)

(a)What does Rav Nachman say about birds and fish that have been salted together in the same K'li?

(b)What will be the Din if the fish was salted together with Basar Beheimah?

(c)Why can he not be speaking about a K'li that has no holes for the blood to drain?

(d)If on the other hand, he is speaking about one which does hae holes, why is the fish Asur?

7)

(a)Rav Nachman rules that - if birds and fish are salted together in the same K'li, the fish is forbidden.

(b)If the fish is salted together with Basar Beheimah - the Din will be exactly the same (since Basar Beheimah takes even longer to exude its blood than birds).

(c)He cannot be speaking about a K'li that has no holes for the blood to drain - because then, even birds that were salted together with birds would be forbidden too, as we will learn later).

(d)He must therefore be speaking about one which does hae holes, and the fish are forbidden - because, due to their soft skin, they quickly finish exuding their blood, and begin to absorb some of the blood of the birds, which have not yet finished exuding theirs.

8)

(a)What happened when Rav Mari bar Rachel was salting meat? What did he discover among the batch of salted pieces?

(b)In what sort of vessel was he salting them?

(c)What does the Beraisa learn from the extra 'Hey' in the Pasuk in Shemini (in connection with Sheratzim) "Eileh ha'Teme'im"?

8)

(a)When Rav Mari bar Rachel was salting meat, he discovered among the batch of salted pieces - some that were T'reifah (or Neveilah).

(b)He was salting them in a vessel - with holes for the blood to drain.

(c)The Beraisa learns from the extra 'Hey' in the Pasuk in Shemini (in connection with Sheratzim) "Eileh ha'Teme'im" that - the body-juices, the gravy and the sediment and spices of Sheratzim as well as all non-Kasher species, are included in the Isur.

9)

(a)What did Rav Mari bar Rachel now ask Rava, based on the current D'rashah?

(b)What was Rava's reply?

(c)Why could we not learn this from Shmuel's principle Mali'ach harei Hu ke'Rose'ach ... ?

9)

(a)Based on the current D'rashah, Rav Mari bar Rachel asked Rava - whether, although, seeing as the vessel contained holes, the Kasher pieces of meat would not have been affected by the blood (as we already learned), they would nevertheless not be rendered T'reifah by the body-juices of the T'reifos?

(b)To which Rava replied that - this was indeed the case, because body-juice is easier to absorb than blood.

(c)We cannot learn this from Shmuel's principle Mali'ach harei Hu ke'Rose'ach ... - because if not for Rava, we would have confined Shmuel's principle to blood (in a vessel that does not contain holes).

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