12th Cycle dedication

CHULIN 79 (14 Elul) - This Daf has been dedicated in honor of the Yahrzeit of Yisrael (son of Chazkel and Miryam) Rosenbaum, who passed away on 14 Elul, by his son and daughter and their families.

1)

(a)What did the Gemara comment when Rav Huna bar Chiya Amar Shmuel ruled like Chananya?

(b)This was said with reference to his statement in connection with a Mishnah in Kilayim. What does Rebbi Yehudah say there regarding breeding a mule whose mother is a horse ...

1. ... but whose father is a donkey, with an animal similar to itself?

2. ... with one whose mother is a donkey?

(c)Why the difference?

(d)What did Shmuel comment on this Mishnah? Who is the Chachamim that he quotes?

(e)What does this prove?

1)

(a)When Rav Huna bar Chiya Amar Shmuel ruled like Chananya, we commented that - Shmuel followed his own reasoning ...

(b)... in the form of a statement in connection with a Mishnah in Kilayim, where Rebbi Yehudah rules that - breeding a mule whose mother is a horse ...

1. ... but whose father is a donkey with an animal similar to itself - is permitted (because whether he would hold Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av or not, the two animals share the same status).

2. ... with one whose mother is a donkey - is forbidden...

(c)... because in fact, he holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av.

(d)Shmuel commented on this Mishnah - that it is the individual opinion of Rebbi Yehudah, but that, according to the Chachamim, who hold Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av (like Chananya), both cases are permitted.

(e)This proves that - since Shmuel refers to Chananya as the Chachamim, this is what he considers the Halachah.

2)

(a)We ask whether Rebbi Yehudah actually holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av or whether he only considers it a Safek. What are the ramifications of the She'eilah?

(b)We try to resolve the She'eilah from the Beraisa where Rebbi Yehudah says 'Kol ha'Noladin min ha'Sus, Af-al-Pi she'Avihen Chamor, Mutarin Zeh ba'Zeh'. What makes us think that he is speaking about regular horses with babies from mules whose fathers are donkeys (even though the Lashon does not imply that), a proof that he holds for sure Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av?

(c)What do we then answer? If all the animals are born from horses whose fathers are donkeys, and Rebbi Yehudah holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, what is he in fact coming to teach us?

(d)How will Rebbi Yehudah explain why, if Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, it is then permitted?

2)

(a)We ask whether Rebbi Yehudah actually holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av or whether he only considers it a Safek. The ramifications of the She'eilah are - whether one is permitted to breed a mule with its mother the horse (assuming he holds Ein Chosh'shin), or not (if it is a Safek).

(b)We try to resolve the She'eilah from the Beraisa where Rebbi Yehudah says 'Kol ha'Noladin min ha'Sus, Af-al-Pi she'Avihen Chamor, Mutarin Zeh ba'Zeh'. We think that he is speaking about regular horses with babies from mules whose fathers are donkeys (even though the Lashon does not imply that), a proof that he holds for sure Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av - because otherwise, what is he coming to teach us?

(c)And we answer that Rebbi Yehudah is indeed speaking where all the animals are born from horses whose fathers are donkeys, and what's more, he holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, and what he is coming to teach us is that - even if we do contend with the seed of the father, we do not suspect that the seed of the horse of one combines with the seed of the donkey of the other and is therefore forbidden ...

(d)... because what happens is that the two seeds mix, creating a new species, which is identical in both cases.

3)

(a)In another Beraisa, what does Rebbi Yehudah say about a she-mule that wants to mate, assuming that one has the choice of a horse, a donkey and a mule to offer it?

(b)What do we try to prove from there?

(c)If, as we answer, the owner does not know whether the mule was born from a horse or from a donkey, then what does Rebbi Yehudah mean when he says 'Ela Miynah'?

(d)How can it be that the owner does not know the species of the mule's father, when there are clear Simanim regarding its voice, the ears and the tail, as we are now about to explain?

3)

(a)In another Beraisa, Rebbi Yehudah permits providing a she-mule that wants to mate with a he-mule, but not with a horse or a donkey.

(b)... an apparent proof that - he is uncertain as to whether Chosh'shin ... or Ein Chosh'shin (because otherwise why not give it whichever animal is of the same as its mother?).

(c)We answer that the owner does not know whether the mule was born from a horse or from a donkey, and what Rebbi Yehudah means when he says 'Ela Miynah' is that - that being the case, one may provide it neither with an animal whose mother is a horse, nor one whose mother is a donkey.

(d)Despite the clear Simanim regarding the voice, the ears and the tail (as we are about to explain), it is possible that the owner does not know what the mule's father was - because Rebbi Yehudah is speaking about a mule which is dumb, and whose ears and tail have been severed.

4)

(a)What distinction does ...

1. ... Abaye draw between the voice of a mule whose father is a donkey and one whose father is a horse?

2. ... Rav Papa draw between the length of the ears and tail of a mule whose father is a donkey and one whose father is a horse?

(b)What is the significance of Tzanif Kaleih, the Lashon used by Abaye to describe the voice of a horse? What does Tzanif actually mean?

(c)We resolve our She'eilah from a statement by Rav Huna b'rei de'Rav Yehoshua. What did he say that does so?

4)

(a)The distinction that ...

1. ... Abaye draws between the voice of a mule whose father is a donkey and one whose father is a horse is that - the former is thick, and the latter resonant.

2. ... Rav Papa draws between the length of the ears and tail of a mule whose father is a donkey and one whose father is a horse is that - the former has long ears and a short tail, whereas the latter has short ears and a long tail.

(b)The significance of Tzanif Kaleih, the Lashon used by Abaye to describe the voice of a horse is - that 'Tzanif' is actually a derivative of the word for the neighing of a horse.

(c)We resolve our She'eilah from a statement by Rav Huna b'rei de'Rav Yehoshua, in whose opinion - everyone agrees that it is forbidden to breed a mule whose father is a donkey, with its own mother, as we learned earlier, a proof that e

5)

(a)What instructions did Rebbi Aba issue to his servant, when the latter went to look for mules to hitch on to his (Rebbi Aba's) wagon?

(b)Why is that?

(c)What must Rebbi Aba therefore hold?

(d)How do we also prove from there that Simanim are d'Oraysa?

(e)Why would there be no problem in circumventing the Isur of Geneivah (by giving back a lost article to someone who may not be the owner, by means of Simanim)?

5)

(a)Rebbi Aba instructed his servant that when, he latter went to look for a pair of mules to hitch on to his (Rebbi Aba's) wagon - he should choose mules that had the same Simanim (regarding the voice, the ears and the tails) ...

(b)... in order to avoid transgressing the Isur of Kil'ayim.

(c)Rebbi Aba must therefore hold - Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av.

(d)We also prove from there that Simanim are d'Oraysa - because if they were only de'Rabbanan, what right would the Rabbanan have to create an institution that circumvents an Isur d'Oraysa (of Kil'ayim)?

(e)There would be no problem in circumventing the Isur of Geneivah (by giving back a lost article to someone who may not be the owner, by means of Simanim) - because the Rabbanan have the power of Hefker Beis-Din Hefker (declaring a person's property Hefker, where necessary).

79b----------------------------------------79b

6)

(a)The Tana Kama in a Beraisa incorporates both Kil'ayim and a Coy in the Isur of Oso v'es B'no. What is the difference between Kil'ayim and a Coy?

(b)Why might we have thought that a Coy is different than Kil'ayim in this regard?

(c)What does Rebbi Eliezer say?

6)

(a)The Tana Kama in a Beraisa incorporates both Kil'ayim and a Coy in the Isur of Oso v'es B'no. The former is - a baby born from two different Beheimos (a goat and a sheep), whereas the latter is one that is born from a Beheimah and a Chayah (a goat and a deer).

(b)We might we have thought that a Coy is different than Kil'ayim in this regard - since the Pasuk in Emor (in the Parshah of Oso v'es B'no) mentions Shor, Kesev and Eiz, but not Tzvi and Ayal.

(c)Rebbi Eliezer does indeed rule that - Oso v'es B'no applies to Kil'ayim, but not to a Coy.

7)

(a)How does Rav Chisda establish the Machlokes between Rebbi Eliezer and the Rabbanan

(b)What is the significance of Rav Chisda's statement? How do others define a Coy?

(c)Why can Rav Chisda not be referring to Shechting the baby born to ...

1. ... a deer but whose father is a goat, on the same day as its mother? What did Rav Chisda himself say about such a case?

2. ... a goat but whose father is a deer, on the same day as its mother? What did Rav Chisda himself say about that?

7)

(a)Rav Chisda establishes the Machlokes between Rebbi Eliezer and the Rabbanan - by a Coy that is born from a goat and a deer.

(b)The significance of Rav Chisda's statement is that - this is considered a Coy, to preclude others, who define it as an independent species, as we will see on the following Daf.

(c)Rav Chisda cannot be referring to Shechting the baby born to ...

1. ... a deer but whose father is a goat, on the same day as its mother, since Rav Chisda himself said that - everyone agrees that in such a case, the Isur of Oso v'es B'no does not apply (because the Torah writes "Seh", as we explained).

2. ... a goat but whose father is a deer, on the same day as its mother, because in that case he says that - everyone agrees that it does (as we will explain shortly).

8)

(a)We re-establish the case with regard to Shechting the female baby of a deer, but whose father is a goat. What exactly, is the case?

(b)One of the two points that form the basis of the Rabbanan's opinion is Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av (which is a sheep). What is the other?

(c)But how can one be Chayav, when the baby is a complete Chayah (and not one of the Beheimos listed in the Torah)?

(d)With which point does Rebbi Eliezer argue?

8)

(a)We therefore re-establish the case with regard to Shechting the female baby of a deer, but whose father is a goat. And the case is with regard to Shechting it (not on the same day as its mother, but) on the same day as its own baby, to which it subsequently gave birth.

(b)The two points that form the basis of the Rabbanan's opinion are - 1. Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av (which is a sheep), and - 2. "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' (in which case it is forbidden to Shecht an animal whose father is a Beheimah, on the same day as its baby, even though both it and its baby are Chayos).

(c)It does not matter that the baby is a Chayah (and not one of the Beheimos listed in the Torah) - as long as the mother is at least partially a Beheimah (since the Torah only mentions the name of the species ["Shor, O Kesev ... "] with regard to the mother, whereas with regard to the baby, it only writes "B'no").

(d)Rebbi Eliezer holds - Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, in which case the D'rashah "Seh", va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' is not relevant.

9)

(a)Seeing as their basic Machlokes is whether we say Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av or not, why do Rebbi Eliezer and the Rabbanan not argue over whether Oso v'es B'no applies to the father or not (like Chananya and the Rabbanan)?

(b)Why does the Mishnah in the sixth Perek forbid the Shechitah of a Coy on Yom-Tov?

(c)What does the Tana rule in a case where one nevertheless Shechted it?

(d)What problem do we have with establishing the Mishnah by a Coy whose mother is a ...

1. ... deer, but whose father is a goat?

2. ... goat, but whose father is a deer?

9)

(a)Despite the fact that their basic Machlokes is whether we say Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av or not, Rebbi Eliezer and the Rabbanan prefer to argue over the current case (Oso v'es B'no by Kil'ayim) than over whether it applies to the father or not (like Chananya and the Rabbanan) - because we would have then said that in the current case, even the Rabbanan will concede that he is Patur, because they do not hold "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh'.

(b)The Mishnah in Bikurim forbids the Shechitah of a Coy on Yom-Tov - because, seeing as a Coy is a Safek Beheimah, one will not be able to fulfill the Mitzvah of Kisuy ha'Dam (since it involves digging a hole on Yom-Tov), and the Mitzvah is confined to a Chayah.

(c)In a case where one nevertheless Shechted it, the Tana rules that - one should leave its blood uncovered.

(d)The problem with establishing the Mishnah by a Coy whose mother is a ...

1. ... deer, but whose father is a goat is that - according to both Tana'im, one ought to be able to both Shecht it and cover the blood on Yom-Tov, since the mother is a deer, and everyone agrees that we contend with the mother. And even if we also contend with the father, we will say "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' (even according to Rebbi Eliezer).

2. ... goat, but whose father is a deer - according to the Rabbanan, one should be permitted to Shecht and to cover the blood (as we explained), whereas according to Rebbi Eliezer, one ought to be permitted to Shecht it, and Patur from covering the blood.

10)

(a)So we establish it like the latter case (by a Coy whose mother is a goat, but whose father is a deer). Then why, according to the Rabbanan, can one not Shecht it on Yom-Tov and cover the blood (like we just asked)?

(b)If that is what the Rabbanan hold (in connection with their Machlokes with Rebbi Eliezer regarding Oso v'es B'no), what do we initially assume, must Rebbi Eliezer hold?

10)

(a)So we establish it like the latter case (by a Coy whose mother is a goat, but whose father is a deer). The reason that, according to the Rabbanan, one cannot Shecht it on Yom-Tov and cover the blood (like we just asked) is - because they only hold Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av mi'Safek (le'Chumra, but not le'Kula [like Rebbi Yehudah]).

(b)If that is what the Rabbanan hold (in connection with their Machlokes with Rebbi Eliezer regarding Oso v'es B'no), then Rebbi Eliezer, we initially assume, must hold - Ein Chosh'shin ... .

11)

(a)The same Tana'im also argue in a Beraisa, over the Mitzvah of Matanos (Zero'a, Lechayayim and Keivah). Both agree that an animal of Kil'ayim is subject to Matanos. What do they say about the Matanos of a Coy?

(b)Why, if we establish the Beraisa by a Coy whose mother is a deer but whose father is a goat, is there no problem, if the author is Rebbi Eliezer?

(c)We do however, have a problem, if the author is the Rabbanan. What must they mean when they rule that a Coy is subject to Matanos?

(d)Why is there a problem even with the half that is Chayav?

11)

(a)The same Tana'im also argue in a Beraisa, over the Mitzvah of Matanos (Zero'a, Lechayayim and Keivah). Both agree that an animal of Kil'ayim is subject to Matanos. The Rabbanan - include a Coy in the Din of Matanos; Rebbi Eliezer does not.

(b)If we establish the Beraisa by a Coy whose mother is a deer but whose father is a goat, there is no problem with establishing the Beraisa like Rebbi Eliezer - because he holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, in which case there is not even Miktzas Seh (as we explained above).

(c)We do however, have a problem, if the author is the Rabbanan, who, when they rule that a Coy is subject to Matanos, must mean - half the Matanos, due to the S'vara of Miktzas Seh.

(d)And the problem with the half that is Chayav is that - seeing as they only hold Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av mi'Safek, even that half ought to be Patur, due to the principle ha'Motzi me'Chavero, Alav ha'Re'ayah?

12)

(a)So how do we establish the Beraisa?

(b)Why is there then no problem according to the Rabbanan?

(c)What, on the other hand, is now the problem with Rebbi Eliezer?

(d)So we conclude that Rebbi Eliezer, like the Rabbanan, holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, but only mi'Safek. Then what is the basis of their Machlokes with regard to 'Oso v'es B'no' (where the Rabbanan say Noheg be'Coy, and Rebbi Eliezer, Eino Noheg)?

12)

(a)So we establish the Beraisa - by a Coy whose mother is a goat but whose father is a deer ...

(b)... and there is mow no problem according to the Rabbanan - because the owner is Chayav half the Matanos, as we explained.

(c)The problem with Rebbi Eliezer, on the other hand, who holds Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av, is that - the owner ought to be Chayav to give the Kohen the full quota of Matanos.

(d)So we conclude that Rebbi Eliezer, like the Rabbanan, holds Ein Chosheshin le'Zera ha'Av, but only mi'Safek, and the basis of their Machlokes with regard to Oso v'es B'no (where the Rabbanan say Noheg be'Coy, and Rebbi Eliezer, Eino Noheg) is - whether we say "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' (the Rabbanan) or not (Rebbi Eliezer).

13)

(a)Consequently, Kisuy ha'Dam and Matanos both speak in the case of a Coy whose mother is a goat but whose father is a deer, and their Machlokes in both cases is whether we say "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' (the Rabbanan) or not (Rebbi Eliezer), like we just explained. If, as we conclude, regarding Oso v'es B'no they are arguing in both possible scenarios, what is the basis of their Mochlokes in the case of a Coy whose mother is ...

1. ... a deer, and whose father, a goat?

2. ... a goat, and whose father, a deer?

(b)Why, in the former case, according to ...

1. ... the Rabbanan, does one not receive Malkos?

2. ... Rebbi Eliezer, may one even Shecht the two animals Lechatchilah? Why is there no Isur?

(c)Why is the latter case ...

1. ... subject to Malkos according to the Rabbanan?

2. ... not subject to Malkos, according to Rebbi Eliezer?

(d)Based on what principle does one not therefore receive Malkos?

13)

(a)Consequently, Kisuy ha'Dam and Matanos both speak in the case of a Coy whose mother is a goat but whose father is a deer, and their Machlokes in both cases is whether we say "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh' (the Rabbanan) or not (Rebbi Eliezer), like we just explained. If, as we, conclude, regarding Oso v'es B'no they are arguing in both possible scenarios, in the case of a Coy whose mother is ...

1. ... a deer, and whose father, a goat, they are arguing over - whether the deer and its child are subject to the Isur of Oso v'es B'no or not.

2. ... a goat, and his father, a deer, they are arguing over - whether one will receive Malkos for Shechting them both on the same day or not.

(b)In the former case, according to ...

1. ... the Rabbanan, one does not receive Malkos - because perhaps we hold Ein Chosh'shin le'Zera ha'Av.

2. ... Rebbi Eliezer, one may even Shecht the two animals Lechatchilah - because he does not hold "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh'.

(c)And the latter case is ...

1. ... subject to Malkos according to the Rabbanan - because even if we say Chosh'shin ... , they hold "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh', in which case, the Shochet is Chayav whatever the case.

2. ... not subject to Malkos, according to Rebbi Eliezer - because maybe we hold Chosh'shin ... , and he does not hold "Seh", 'va'Afilu Miktzas Seh'.

(d)One does not therefore receive Malkos - because it is a Hasra'as Safek, and we have a principle that Hasra'as Safek Lo Sh'mah Hasra'ah.

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