BAVA KAMA 72 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Ms. Estanne Fawer to honor the Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

(a)We learned in our Mishnah 'ha'Shochet Chulin ba'Azarah, Meshalem Arba'ah va'Chamishah'. How does Rav Chavivi from Chuzna'a attempt to prove from here that the actual Shechitah is confined to the last part of the Shechitah (which kills the animal)?

(b)Rav Huna B'rei de'Rava refutes this proof on the grounds that even assuming that 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'Ad Sof' (the Shechitah incorporates the entire act), the Ganav would be Chayav Daled ve'Hey for the initial cut alone. On what grounds does Rav Ashi reject this answer?

(c)So how does Rav Gamda in the name of Rava reconcile our Mishnah with the opinion that holds 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'Ad Sof'? What does 'Sof' really mean in this context?

1)

(a)We learned in our Mishnah 'ha'Shochet Chulin ba'Azarah, Meshalem Arba'ah va'Chamishah'. Rav Chavivi from Chuzna'a attempts to prove from here that 'Einah li'Shechitah Ela li'be'Sof' (the Halachic Shechitah is confined to the last part of the Shechitah [which kills the animal]) because otherwise, the moment the Ganav has made the first cut, the animal would be Asur be'Hana'ah, and would no longer belong to the owner (in which case the Ganav would not be Chayav Daled ve'Hey).

(b)Rav Huna B'rei de'Rava refutes this proof on the grounds that even assuming that 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'Ad Sof' (the Shechitah incorporates the entire act), the Ganav would be Chayav Daled ve'Hey for the initial cut. Rav Ashi rejects this answer on the basis of the Pasuk "u'Teva*cho*" from which we extrapolate ' ... Kulo be'Isuro'' (the entire Shechitah must be be'Isur in order to be Chayav Daled ve'Hey.

(c)Rav Gamda in the name of Rava reconciles our Mishnah with the opinion that holds 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'Ad Sof' by establishing the Mishnah when the Ganav performed up to half the Shechitah outside the Azarah before taking the animal into the Azarah and completing the Shechitah (meaning the majority of the two pipes), in which case, he becomes Chayav Daled ve'Hey and renders the animal forbidden, simultaneously.

2)

(a)Others cite Rav Gamda in the name of Rava in connection with the following Machlokes. 'Resh Lakish Amar Rebbi Levi Saba, Einah li'Shechitah Ela li'be'Sof'. What does Rebbi Yochanan say?

(b)How does Rav Rav Chavivi from Chuzna'a attempt to prove from here that Rebbi Yochanan holds 'Chulin she'Nishchatah ba'Azarah cannot be d'Oraysa?

(c)How does Rav Acha B'rei de'Rava try to answer this Kashya?

(d)Rav Ashi raises the same objection as he raised in the first Lashon ("u'Tevacho" 'Kulei be'Isura'). How does Rav Gamda in the name of Rava reconcile our Mishnah with Rebbi Yochanan?

2)

(a)Others cite Rav Gamada in the name of Rava in connection with the following Machlokes. 'Resh Lakish Amar Rebbi Levi Saba Einah li'Shechitah Ela li'be'Sof' 've'Rebbi Yochanan Amar Yeshnah li'Sechirus mi'Techilah ve'Ad Sof'.

(b)Rav Rav Chavivi from Chuzna'a attempt to prove from here that Rebbi Yochanan holds 'Chulin she'Nishchatah ba'Azarah cannot be d'Oraysa because if it was, why would our Tana obligate the Ganav to pay Daled ve'Hey for Shechting the animal in the Azarah, seeing as the moment he has made the first cut, the animal becomes Asur be'Hana'ah, and he is no longer Shechting the owner's animal (as we explained earlier).

(c)Rav Acha B'rei de'Rava tries to answer this Kashya by obligating the Ganav Daled ve'Hey for the initial cut.

(d)Rav Ashi raises the same objection as he raised in the first Lashon ("u'Tevacho" 'Kulei be'Isura'). Rav Gamda in the name of Rava reconciles our Mishnah with Rebbi Yochanan by establishing the Mishnah when the Ganav performed up to half the Shechitah outside the Azarah ... (as we explained earlier).

72b----------------------------------------72b

3)

(a)Our Mishnah discusses witnesses who testify that someone stole a cow and sold or Shechted it. How much will they have to pay if they both become Zomemin?

(b)If two witnesses testify that someone stole the animal, and two other witnesses, that he Shechted or sold it, how much will each pair pay if they both become Zomemin?

(c)And what will be the Din in the latter case ...

1. ... if only the second pair become Zomemin?

2. ... if one of the second pair become Zomemin?

3. ... if one of the first pair become Zomemin?

(d)Why in the case where one of the second pair become Zomemin, do they not pay Daled ve'Hey?

3)

(a)Our Mishnah discusses witnesses who testify that someone stole a cow and sold or Shechted it. If they both become Zomemin they will have to pay the Keren, the Kefel and the Daled ve'Hey (a total of four-or five-fold).

(b)If two witnesses testify that someone stole the animal and two other witnesses, that he Shechted or sold it, then if they both become Zomemin the first set pays Kefel, and the second set, Daled ve'Hey (i.e. two or three-fold).

(c)In the latter case ...

1. ... if only the second set become Zomemin then the Ganav pays Kefel, and the Zomemin, Daled ve'Hey.

2. ... if one of the second set become Zomemin then the Ganav pays Kefel, and the second testimony is Bateil.

3. ... if one of the first set become Zomemin then the entire testimony is Bateil.

(d)In the case where one of the second set become Zomemin, they do not pay Daled ve'Hey because the Dinim of Zomemin only apply when both witnesses become Zomemin, not only one of them.

4)

(a)What will be the Din in the previous case, if, after ...

1. ... one of the first pair becomes a Zomem, the second set of witnesses become Zomemin too?

2. ... both of the witnesses of the first set became Zomemin, the second set of witnesses become Zomemin, too?

4)

(a)In the previous case, if, after ...

1. ... one of the first set becomes a Zomem, the second set of witnesses become Zomemin too they do not pay Daled ve'Hey, since their testimony became annulled (not through Hazamah, but) through the fact that the theft was not proven, and 'if there was no theft, then there was no Tevichah or Mechirah either'.

2. ... both of the witnesses of the first set became Zomemin, the second set of witnesses become Zomemin, too then the latter are certainly exempt from Daled ve'Hey.

5)

(a)According to Abaye, an Eid Zomem becomes Pasul retroactively. What are the ramifications of this ruling?

(b)How does Abaye learn this from the Pasuk in Mishpatim "Al Ta'shes Yadcha Rasha"?

(c)What is Rava reason for saying that he is only Pasul from the time that he becomes a Zomem?

(d)What makes Eid Zomem a Chidush?

5)

(a)According to Abaye, an Eid Zomem becomes Pasul retroactively meaning that any other testimony that he testified between the false testimony and the time that he is declared an Eid Zomem is void.

(b)Abaye learns this from the Pasuk "Al Ta'shes Yadcha Rasha", disqualifying a Rasha from testifying, and seeing as he was a Rasha from the moment that he testified his first testimony, all his subsequent testimonies are automatically invalid.

(c)Rava's reason for saying that he is only Pasul from the time that he becomes a Zomem is due to the fact that Eid Zomem is a Chidush in the first place and we follow the principle 'Ein Lecha bo Ela Chidusho' (we take the Chidush at its minimum, without extending it further).

(d)What makes Eid Zomem a Chidush is the fact that we believe the word of the second set of witnesses against the word of the first.

6)

(a)In the second Lashon, Rava agrees with Abaye in principle. Then why did the Rabbanan validate all his testimonies up to the time that he became an Eid Zomem?

(b)One difference between the two Leshonos will be in a case where each of the two witnesses was declared a Zomem by two independent witnesses. How will that fit with the two Leshonos of Rava?

(c)What is the second difference between the two Leshonos?

(d)Rebbi Yirmiyah mi'Difti rules like Rava, Rav Ashi, like Abaye. What is the Halachah?

6)

(a)In the second Lashon, Rava agrees with Abaye in principle. Nevertheless, the Rabbanan validate all his testimonies up to the time that he became an Eid Zomem to spare the losses of people who may in the interim, have purchased fields on which the Eid Zomem signed, and who now stand to lose them.

(b)One difference between the two Leshonos will be in a case where each of the two witnesses was declared a Zomem by two independent witnesses removing the aspect of Chidush. Consequently, according to the first Lashon, the Eidim Zomemin will indeed be Pasul retroactively; whereas according to the second Lashon, they will still be Pasul only from now on, in order to safeguard the interests of the purchasers.

(c)The second difference between the two Leshonos is in a case where the second set of witnesses did not declare the first set Zomemin, but testified that they were Pasul because they had stolen. Here too, it would not be a Chidush to believe them (since the second set could not possibly be believed to vindicate themselves).

(d)Rebbi Yirmiyah mi'Difti rules like Rava, Rav Ashi, like Abaye. The Halachah is like Abaye, as it is in the other five cases of 'Ya.L.Ke.Ga.M'.