BAVA KAMA 72 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Ms. Estanne Fawer to honor the Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

TOSFOS DH DE'LO ACHLI BISRA DE'TURA

úåñ' ã"ä ãìà àëìé áùøà ãúåøà

(Summary: Tosfos establishes the case.)

ùøåé áúòðéú äéä.

(a)

Clarification: He was actually fasting.

2)

TOSFOS DH SEIFA DE'LO KARINA BEIH U'TEVACHO KULEIH BE'ISURA

úåñ' ã"ä ñéôà ìà ÷øéðà áéä åèáçå ëåìå áàéñåøà

(Summary: Tosfos extrapolates from the Sugya that a person can bequeath a K'nas to his children and elaborates.)

îùîò àáì ëôì îçééá àò"â ãìà òîã áãéï, åàôé' àøáòä åçîùä äåä îçééá àé ìàå ã'áòéðï åèáçå ëåìå áàéñåøà.'

(a)

Inference: This implies that he is Chayav Kefel even if he did not go to Beis-Din; in fact he would be Chayav even Arba'ah va'Chamishah if not for the fact that the entire Shechitah must be performed be'Isur.

åøéùà ðîé ÷úðé 'çééá áàøáòä åçîùä,' åàò"â ãàééøé áìà òîã áãéï ëîå áñéôà ...

1.

Inference (cont.): ... And the Reisha too, states 'Chayav be'Arba'ah va'Chamishah, even though, like the Seifa, it speaks that he did not yet go to Beis-Din ...

ãàéï çéìå÷ áéï øéùà ìñéôà àìà ãáøéùà èáç åàç"ë îú àáéå åáñéôà îú àáéå åàç"ë èáç.

2.

Proof: ... since the sole difference between the Reisha and the Seifa lies in the fact that, whereas in the Reisha he Shechted it before his father died, in the Seifa, his father died and then he Shechted it.

åìîàé ãñ"ì îòé÷øà ìøá ðçîï 'åìà çîùä çöàé á÷ø' , ìà îå÷é ëùòîã áãéï àìà îùåí ãìà ìéäåé ä' çöàé á÷ø; àí ëï, îùîò ëì äñåâéà ã'àãí îåøéù ÷ðñ ìáðéå' .

(b)

Conclusion: According to what Rav Nachman initially thought - 'And not five half-cattle', it only establishes the case where he had already appeared in Beis-Din, so that it should not be a case of five half-cattle; In that case, the entire Sugya implies that 'One can bequeath a K'nas to one's children'.

åä÷ùä øéá"à, ãáøéù 'ðòøä ùðúôúúä' (ëúåáåú ãó îá: åùí) àîøéðï 'ëé ÷àîø øáä îîåðà äåé ìäåøéùå ìáðéå áùàø ÷ðñåú.'

(c)

Question: The Riva queries this from the beginning of 'Na'arah she'Nispatsah' (Kesuvos, Daf 42b & 43a), where the Gemara states 'When did Rabah say that it is Mamon, to hand down to his sons? - By other Kenasos ... '? ...

åäúí äåé ôé' îùåí ùòîã áãéï, àáì ìà òîã áãéï îùîò ëåìä ùîòúà ãìà îöé ìäåøéù?

1.

Question (cont.): ... and the Gemara speaks where he had appeared in Beis-Din, but if he had not, the entire Sugya there implies that he could not bequeath it to his children?

åé"ì, ãøáà åøá ðçîï ãäëà ìéú ìäå ñåâéà ãäúí, åñ"ì ãéëåì ìäåøéù áùàø ÷ðñåú àò"â ùìà òîã áãéï...

(d)

Answer #1: Rava and Rav Nachman here do not agree with the Sugya there. They hold that one can bequeath other Kenasos to one's children, even if he has not appeared in Beis-Din ...

ãðäé ã÷ðñ ùì àåðñ åôéúåé àéï éëåì ìäåøéù áùåí òðéï, ëã÷úðé áîúðé' ãäúí...

1.

Answer #1 (cont.): ... because, granted one cannot bequeath the K'nas of Oneis and Pituy to one's children under any circumstances, as the Beraisa states there ...

äééðå îùåí ãàåúå ãáø ùä÷ðñ éåöà îîðå ãäééðå äáú, àéï éëåì ìäåøéùå ìáðéå, ëãàîøéðï äúí "àåúí ìáðéëí," 'åìà áðåúéëí ìáðéëí' ...

2.

Answer #1 (cont.): ... that is because he cannot bequeath to them the thing from which the K'nas emerges - his daughter - as the Gemara explains there "Osom li'Veneichem", 've'Lo B'noseichm li'Veneichem' ...

àáì îîåï ãäëà ùäëôì ã' åä' éåöàéï îîðå ãäééðå áäîä, äåà îåøéù ìáðéå; ìôéëê æä ä÷ðñ îåøéù ìáðéå.

3.

Answer #1 (cont.): ... whereas the Mamon here, from which the Kefel Arba'ah va'Chamishah emerges - the animal, he can bequeath to his children. Consequently, he can bequeath to them the K'nas as well.

åòåã ðøàä ìø"é ãøáà åøá ðçîï ãäëà ìà ôìéâé à'ñåâéà ãøáä åàáéé ãôø÷ ðòøä (ùí.), ãîééøé äëà ëåìä îúðéúéï ëùòîã áãéï åàîøå ìéä 'çééá àúä ìéúï ìå' ...

(e)

Answer #2: Moreover the Ri explains, Rava and Rav Nachman here do not argue with the Sugya of Rabah and Abaye in Perek Na'arah (Ibid.), because here the entire Mishnah speaks where he had appeared in Beis-Din and they told him that he was Chayav to pay his disputant.

ãëä"â àãí îåøéù ìáðéå ÷ðñ, ëéåï ãà"ì 'çééá àúä ìéúï ìå'.

1.

Answer #2 (cont.): ... because in such a case, a person is able to bequeath a K'nas to his children, since they informed him that he is Chayav ... .

åìà ùééê äùúà ìîôøê à'øéùà 'ìéôìåâ áãéãéä, áèáç åîëø áçéé àáéå, áéï òîã áãéï ììà òîã' ...

(f)

Refuted Question: And the Gemara cannot now ask on the Reisha 'Let it differentiate by himself, where he Shechted or sold the animal in the lifetime of his father, irrespective of whether he had appeared in Beis-Din or not?

ãðéçà ìéä ìîúðé ëåìä áòîã áãéï, ãúå ìà äåé ÷ðñ, ãàô"ä áñéôà 'îú àáéå åàç"ë èáç ' ôèåø, îùåí ãáòéðï 'åèáçå ëåìå áàéñåøà' ,åìéëà.

1.

Refutation: ... since it suits the Tana to learn it all where he had appeared in Beis-Din, in which case it is no longer a K'nas; nevertheless in the Seifa, where he Shechted after his father died, he is Patur, because it need to be 'u'Tevacho Kulo be'Isura', which it is not ...

åçéãåù æä àéðå éëåì ìäùîéòðå àìà áîú àáéå åàç"ë èáç åîëø.

2.

Refutation (cont.): ... and this Chidush it can only teach us where the father died first and then he Shechted or sold it.

àáì îòé÷øà ãñáéøà ìéä' "çîùä á÷ø" àîø øçîðà, åìà çîùä çöàé á÷ø' -åäééðå èòîà ãîôèø áñéôà - ôøéê ùôéø ãìéôìåâ åìéúðé áãéãéä, 'áîä ãáøéí àîåøéí ëùòîã áãéï åàîøå ìå "öà úï ìå... "

3.

Refutation (cont.): Whereas initially, when the Gemara held "Chamishah Bakar", 've'Lo Chamishah Chatza'ei Bakar', which is the reason that he is Patur in the Seifa, the Gemara is justified in asking that the Tana should have drawn a distinction in the same case (where the father died after his son Shechted or sold the animal) - is speaking where he had appeared in Beis-Din and they said to him "Go and give it to him!" ...

àáì ìà òîã áãéï- ' ôéøåù ùìà àîøå ìå "öà úï ìå" àìà "çééá àúä ìéúï ìå" åèáç åîëø åàç"ë îú àáéå - ôèåø' îèòí 'åìà ä' çöàé á÷ø' .

4.

Refutation (cont.): ... but where he did not - where they did not tell him to give it to him, only that he is Chayav to do so, and he subsequently Shechted or sold the animal and then his father died, he is Patur, due to the D'rashah 've'Lo Chamishah Chatza'ei Bakar' (See Mesores ha'Shas).

ãäééðå èòîà ãñéôà, ãñéôà ðîé îééøé áìà òîã áãéï áçéé àáéå, ùìà àîøå ìå 'öà úï ìå' àìà 'çééá àúä ìéúï ìå' ...

(g)

Conclusion: And since that is the reason in the Seifa, which also speaks where he had not yet appeared in Beis-Din during his father's lifetime, which means that they did not instruct him to actually pay his father, but only informed him that he is Chayav to pay him.

àí ëï, áçðí ð÷è áñéôà 'îú àáéå åàçø ëê èáç' ,ãáæä äòðéï àôé' èáç åàçø ëê îú ðîé.

1.

Conclusion (cont.): In that case, the Seifa had no reason to switch to where the son Shechted after his father's death, seeing as, in that case, the same would apply even if his father would have died after the Shechitah.

å÷öú ðøàä ãåç÷ ôéøåù æä...

(h)

Refutation: This explanation is a bit of a Dochek however ...

ãîàçø ãîåòìú äòîãä áãéï ã'çééá àúä ìéúï ìå' ìòðéï ùçùåá ëàéìå æëä, ùéëåì ìäåøéù ìáðéå... àí ëï, âí ìòðéï æä úåòéì ùééçùá ëàéìå ðúçééá ìàáéå ä' á÷ø ùìîéí...

1.

Reason: ... because, since appearing in Beis-Din where they declared 'Chayav Atah Litein lo' is effective in that he acquires it and can bequeath it to his children, it should also be effective in that it should be considered as if he is obligated to give his father five complete oxen ...

ùîëç äàá äåà îúçééá ìùìí ìàçéå, åìà îëçí.

2.

Reason (cont.): ... seeing as it is through his father that he is Chayav to pay his brothers and not directly through them.

åø"é äìáï îôøù ãëì ÷ðñ àãí îåøéù ìáðéå, åääéà ãôø÷ ðòøä (ùí) ìòðéï ÷øáï ùáåòä àééøé ...

(i)

Answer #2: The Ri ha'Lavan therefore explains that a person can bequeath every K'nas to his children, and the Sugya in 'Na'arah she'Nispatsah' is referring to Korban Shevu'ah (and not to K'nas at all [See Mesores ha'Shas]) ...

ëîå ùîåëç úçéìú äñåâéà, ãìòðéï ÷øáï ùáåòä ùàì àáéé ìøáä, åòì æä äùéáå 'ëé ÷àîéðà îîåï äåé ìøáé ùîòåï - ìäúçééá òìéå ÷øáï ùáåòä ìäåøéùå ìáðéå...

1.

Source: ... as is evident at the beginning of the Sugya, where Abaye asked Rabah about Korban Shevu'ah, to which he replied 'When did I say that it is Mamon according to Rebbi Shimon, to be Chayav on it a Korban Shevu'ah, to bequeath it to his children ...

ùàí îú åúáòåäå àçø îéúú àáéäí ÷ðñ ùäééú çééá ìàáéðå åäòîéãê áãéï åðúçééáú ìå áãéï, åëôø åðùáò åàçø ëê äåãä...

(j)

Source (cont.): ... that is if their father died and they claimed from him after that the K'nas that he was Chayav to pay the father who took him to Beis-Din, and he denied and swore and then confessed ...

äåàéì åàâìàé îéìúà ãáòú ùðôì ìéã äéåøùéí ëáø äéä îîåï àöì àáéäí - ùäøé ëáø òîã òìéå áãéï åðúçééá ìå, åìà äéä éëåì ìäåãåú åìäôèø îäï...

1.

Reason: ... since it was revealed that at the time that it fell to the heirs it had already become Mamon vis-a-vis their father - since he had already appeared in Beis-Din, where he was pronounced Chayav to pay, and he was not able to admit and be Patur;

àí ëï, ìâáé ãéãäå àéï ò÷øå ÷ðñ, åä"ì ãåîéà ãô÷ãåï ã÷øà, åîúçééá òìéä ÷øáï ùáåòä.

2.

Reason (cont.): Consequently, as far as they are concerned, it is no longer basically a K'nas, in which case it is similar to the Pikadon mentioned in the Torah, and he is Chayav a Korban Shevu'ah ...

àáì àí ìà òîã áãéï, àò"ô ùäéåøù úåáòå, îëì î÷åí, àéï ãåîéà ãô÷ãåï, åìà îçééá áèòðúå ÷øáï ùáåòä -àôé' äòîéãåäå áãéï åðúçééá ìäå áãéï åàçø ëê òúä ëùúáòåäå ëôø åðùáò åäåãä, ùäøé òé÷øå ÷ðñ.

(k)

Answer #2 (concl.): ... but had he not appeared in Beis-Din, even though the heir is now claiming from him, it is nevertheless not comparable to Pikadon, and he is not therefore Chayav a Korban Shevu'ah with his claim - even if they took him to Beis-Din and they pronounced him Chayav to pay them, and when they subsequently claimed from him, he denied the claim, swore and confessed, since the basic claim is a K'nas ...

ëäà ãàîø áúø äëé- ãàéöèøéê ÷øà "åëéçù" ìòîãä áãéï åáâøä åàçø ëê îúä, ãäúí ëé ÷à éøéú îéðä ÷à éøéú îëì î÷åí...

(l)

Precedent: ... as the Gemara says afterwards - the Pasuk "ve'Kichesh ... " is needed for where the girl appeared in Beis-Din, became a Bogeres and then died, because, since there he inherits from her in any case ...

àéï ãåîéà ãô÷ãåï, àò"ô ùò"é éøåùä áà ìéã äàá òëùéå, äåàéì åúçéìúå ÷ðñ ìâáé ãéãä åãéãéä, àôé' îúä àçø ùáâøä, òé÷øå ÷ðñ îé÷øé ìâáé äàá, åìà îúçééá ÷øáï ùáåòä.

1.

Precedent (cont.): ... it is not comparable to Pikadon, even though it comes to her father now as an inheritance, seeing as regarding both her and him, it was initially a K'nas, even where she died after becoming a Bogeres, it is basically considered a K'nas regarding the father, and he (the seducer) is therefore not Chayav a Korban Shevu'ah.

åàí úàîø, áôø÷ àìå ðòøåú (ùí ãó ìè. åùí ãó ìç: ã"ä éù) ã÷áòé 'éù áâø á÷áø åô÷ò àá, àå àéï áâø åìà ô÷ò àá ... '

(m)

Question: In Perek Eilu Na'aros (Ibid. Daf 30a [See also Tosfos there, Daf 38b, DH 'Yesh']) the Gemara asks whether Bagrus takes effect in the grave, and the father loses his rights, or not ...

åàîàé ô÷ò àá ëùéù áâø á÷áø? ðäé ãàéï ìå îëçå, éäéä ìå îëç éøåùä, ùéåøù àú áúå...

1.

Question (cont.): ... Why should the father lose his rights if there is Bagrus in the grave? Granted, he does not have his own rights, but why should he not have the rights via what he inherits from his daughter ...

ëéåï ã÷ðñ ðîé áø éøåùä äåà?

2.

Reason: ... bearing in mind that K'nas is subject to inheritance?

åéù ìåîø, ãäúí àéï éëåì ìæëåú îëçä, ùäáú ìà äéúä øàåéä ìæëåú áå îòåìí.

(n)

Answer: There, he cannot obtain via his daughter something that she herself was not able to obtain, since she died whilst she was still a Na'arah.

åàí úàîø, åëé áòé îòé÷øà 'éù áâø á÷áø, åãáðä äåé' -äéàê éëåì ìäéåú ùì áðä, äìà àéðä éëåìä ìäåøéùä, ëã÷àîø ááòéà áúøééúà 'éù áâø á÷áø åô÷ò àá' ?

(o)

Question: When the Gemara initially asks whether there is Bagrus in the grave, in which case her son will receive it, how can it possibly go to her son, seeing as she cannot bequeath it, as we see in the latter She'eilah - 'Whether there is Bagrus in the grave, in which case the father loses his rights'?

åéù ìåîø, ãáòéà ÷îééúà äåéà ááåùú åôâí ãäåé îîåðà åîåøùú ùôéø ìáðä...

(p)

Answer: The first She'eilah refers to Boshes and P'gam, which are Mamon, and which she is therefore able to bequeath to her son ...

àò"â ãáåùú åôâí àéú÷åù ì÷ðñ...

(q)

Implied Question: ... despite the fact that Boshes and P'gam are compared to K'nas ...

ëãúðï áôø÷ ðòøä (ùí ãó îà:) 'ìà äñôé÷ä ìòîåã áãéï òã ùîú äàá, äøé äï ùì òöîä' -îùîò ãà'áåùú åôâí ðîé ÷àé, îã÷úðé 'äøé äï' ìùåï øáéí...

1.

Source: ... as the Mishnah states in Perek Na'arah (Ibid., Daf 41b) 'If she did not manage to appear in Beis-Din before her father died, then they belong to her' - implying that it is referring also to Boshes and P'gam, seeing as it says 'they (Harei Hein)' in the plural ...

äééðå ãå÷à ìòðéï âáééú äàá àéú÷åù ì÷ðñ...

(r)

Answer: That comparison pertains specifically to the father's claim ...

ëãëúéá "åðúï äàéù äùåëá òîä ìàáé äðòøä çîùéí... ' åãøùéðï 'äðàú ùëéáä ð', îëìì ãàéëà áåùú åôâí' .

1.

Source #1: As the Torah writes "And the man who was intimate with her shall give to the girl's father fifty (Sela'im)", on which the Gemara Darshens 'The pleasure of the intimacy is fifty Sela'im, implying that he must also pay Boshes and P'gam'.

åàéú ããøéù "úçú àùø òéðä," 'îëìì ãàéëà áåùú åôâí'

2.

Source #2: Others Darshen it from "Because he afflicted her", implying that there is also Boshes and P'gam to pay.

àáì äëà, ðäé ãîôèø äîàðñ îï ä÷ðñ, ìôé ùàéï éëåìä ìäåøéù, ùìà æëúä áå, îáåùú åôâí ãäåé îîåðà, ìà îôèø.

(s)

Answer (cont.): ... whereas in our case, granted the rapist is Patur from the K'nas, since the girl she is unable to bequeath it - because she herself never obtained it, he is not Patur from Boshes and P'gam, which is Mamon.

3)

TOSFOS DH DE'I YESHNAH LI'SHECHITAH MI'TECHILASH VE'AD SOF MI'CHI SHACHIT PURTA

úåñ' ã"ä ãàé éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó îëé ùçéè ôåøúà ëå'

(Summary: Tosfos explains why the Gemara cannot query the opinion that holds 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof from the fact that the Torah declares Chayav Chulin ba'Azarah and Shechutei Chutz.)

îîàé ãçééá øçîðà à'çåìéï áòæøä åà'ùçåèé çåõ ìà îöé ìîôøê - 'àé éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó , 'îëé ùçèä ôåøúà, àñøä, åàéãê îçúê òôø áòìîà äåà?

(a)

Implied Question: From the fact that the Torah declares Chayav Chulin ba'Azarah and Shechutei Chutz, one cannot ask - 'If the Shechitah is mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof, then from the moment one Shechts the first bit, one renders the animal Asur, and the remainder is merely like cutting (a clod of) earth?

àò"â ãìéëà ìîéîø ãîçééá à'ääåà ôåøúà, ëîå ùàôøù áñîåê...

1.

Implied Question (cont.): ... even tlhough one cannot say that one is Chayav on account of that first bit, as Tosfos will explain shortly (in the next DH) ...

ãëéåï ãàéï ùí ôñåì àçø àìà ãùçåèé çåõ ìáãå, àéëà ìîéîø ã'áäëé çééá øçîðà.'

(b)

Answer: ... because, since there is no P'sul other than that of Sh'chutei Chutz, one can say that the Torah renders him Chayav under these circumstances ...

àáì ëùéù ôñåì àçø òîå, àæ éù ìôèåø, àôéìå ìî"ã 'éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó... '

(c)

Answer (cont.): ... but where there is a second P'sul together with it (such as in the case cited in Chulin), he ought to be Patur, even according to those who hold 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah .mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof' ...

ëéåï ãáñåó ùçéèä äåé ëîçúê òôø áòìîà.

1.

Reason: ... Seeing as the end of the Shechitah is like cutting (a clod of) earth.

4)

TOSFOS DH KI KA'ME'CHAYEV 'HAHU PURTA ME'CHAYEV

úåñ' ã"ä ëé ÷îçééá àääåà ôåøúà îçééá

(Summary: Tosfos asks why he is Chayav at all, according to the opinion that holds 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof'.)

úéîä, ëéåï ãñåó äùçéèä ôñåìä, àéï ìå ìäúçééá à'ôåøúà ÷îà àôéìå ìî"ã 'éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó' ?

(a)

Question: Since the end of the Shechitah is Pasul, he ought not to be Chayav on the first bit, even according to those who hold 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof '? ...

ëãîùîò áô"á ãçåìéï (ãó ëè:) -ãôøéê îääéà ã'àéøò áä ôñåì áùçéèä' áéï ÷åãí ôñåìä áéï ìàçø ôñåìä, àéï îèîàä áâãéí ...

1.

Source: ... as is implied in the second Perek of Chulin (Daf 29b) - where the Gemara asks from where a P'sul occurred (to the Parah Adumah) by the Shechitah - both before the P'sul and after it, the Shechitah does not render the Shochet's clothes Tamei ...

áäæàúä ,÷åãí ôñåìä, îèîàä áâãéí; ìàçø ôñåìä, àéï îèîàä áâãéí.' åàé àîøú 'éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó', ðéôìåâ ðîé áùçéèúä?

2.

Source (cont.): ... by the Haza'ah - before the P'sul, the Haza'ah renders the Kohen's clothes Tamei; after the P'sul, it does not. And if one holds 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah mi'Techilah ve'ad Sof ', why does the Tana not draw the same distinction by the Shechitah (as it does by the Haza'ah)?

åîùðé 'ðú÷ì÷ìä áùçéèä ÷àîøú? ëéåï ãðú÷ì÷ìä áùçéèä ìáñåó, àéâìàé îéìúà ìîôøò ãîòé÷øà ìàå ùçéèä äéà ëìì.'

3.

Source (cont.): ... And the Gemara replies in amazement 'Are you asking from where there is a Kilkul in the Shechitah? Seeing as in the end the Shechitah became spoilt, it becomes revealed retroactively that it was not a Shechitah at all!'

åàåúå ÷ì÷åì îô' ø"ú ãìàå ãå÷à ðú÷ì÷ìä áâåó äùçéèä , ëâåï ðåçø åîò÷ø- àìà àôé' ðú÷ì÷ìä ò"é îìàëä ùòùä áùòú ùçéèä

(b)

Proof: ... and as for the Kilkul in question, Rabeinu Tam explains that it was not necessarily one that occurred in the actual Shechitah itself, such as 'Nocher or Me'aker' (where he tore it open or where he pulled out the Simanim) - but even if it became spoilt by work that he performed simultaneously together with it ...

...ãåîéà ãàéøò áä ôñåì áäæàúä, ãîééøé áôñåì îìàëä...

1.

Source: ... similar to the P'sul that occurred by the Haza'ah, which speaks with regard to a P'sul Melachah ...

ãàé ìàå äëé, àëúé ú÷ùä ìå 'ðéôìåâ ðîé áùçéèúä áôñåì îìàëä'?

2..

Proof: ... because otherwise, one could still ask that one should differentiate even by the Shechitah, by a case of a P'sul Melachah?

àìîà îùîò äúí ãàôé' ìî"ã 'éùðä ìùçéèä îúçéìä åòã ñåó,' ëùàéøò ôñåì áàîöò, àéï úçéìú äùçéèä ùçéèä?

3.

Question (concl.): In any event, we see from there that, even according to the opinion that 'Yeshnah li'Shechitah ... ', should a P'sul occur in the middle, the beginning of the Shechitah, it is not considered a Shechitah?

åé"ì, ãäëé ðîé ä"î ìà÷ùåéé ìéä, àìà áìàå äëé îñì÷ ìéä ùôéø.

(c)

Answer: The Gemara could indeed have asked that Kashya here, only it concludes satisfactorally anyway.

5)

TOSFOS DH LEIMA KA'SAVAR REBBI YOCHANAN CHULI N SHE'NISHCHATU BA'AZARAH LA'AV D'ORAYSA

úåñ' ã"ä ìéîà ÷ñáø øáé éåçðï çåìéï ùðùçèå áòæøä ìàå ãàåøééúà

(Summary: Tosfos explains the Gemara's question.)

åú÷ùä ãéãéä à'ãéãéä- ãàéäå âåôéä àîø áôø÷ äàéù î÷ãù (÷ãåùéï ãó ðæ:) 'çåìéï ùðùçèå áòæøä ãàåøééúà' ...

(a)

Clarification: One can therefore present a discrepancy in Rebbi Yochanan, seeing as he himself says in Perek ha'Ish Mekadesh (Kidushin, Daf 57b) that 'Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah is d'Oraysa' ...

åéìéó ìä î÷øà.

1.

Clarification (cont.): ... and he learns it from a Pasuk.

72b----------------------------------------72b

6)

TOSFOS DH DE'I SALKA DA'ATACH D'ORAYSA MI'CHI SHACHIT BAH ETC.

úåñ' ã"ä ãàé ñ"ã ãàåøééúà îëé ùçéè áä ëå'

(Summary: Tosfos explains the significance of the difference as to whether 'Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah' [or whichever Isur is involved] is d'Oraysa or de'Rabanan and elaborates.)

îùîò ãàé äåä îãøáðï, çùéá ãîøä ùôéø.

(a)

Inference: This implies that if it ('Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah') was mi'de'Rabanan, it would justifiably be considered the owner's.

åîúåê ëê äéä ðøàä ìã÷ã÷ ãú÷øåáú ò"æ àñåøä áäðàä ãàåøééúà...

(b)

Halachah: That being the case, one can deduce that the sacrifices of Avodah-Zarah are Asur be'Hana'ah min ha'Torah ...

îã÷àîø ìòéì 'åø"î ùåçè ìò"æ àîàé îçééá, ëéåï ãùçè ôåøúà àñøä, àéãê ìà ãîøä ÷èáç?' åàé ãøáðï äåä, çùéá ùôéø ãîøä.

1.

Source: ... since the Gemara asked earlier (on Daf 71b) why, according to Rebbi Meir, 'Shochet la'Avodah-Zarah is Chayav', seeing as the moment he Shechts the first bit, he renders the animal Asur, and as for the rest, he is not Shechting what belongs to the owner?

åîéäå éù ìãçåú ãú÷øåáú ò"æ àôé' ìà àñåøä áäðàä àìà îãøáðï, çùéá ìéä ùôéø ìàå ãéãéä...

(c)

Refutation: It is possible however, to refute this proof - in that even if a sacrifice to Avodah-Zarah was Asur be'Hana'ah mi'de'Rabanan, it would be considered not his ...

ëéåï ãàñøå çëîéí áëì äðàåú, ãàôéìå ÷éãù áå àú äàùä àéï î÷åãùú...

1.

Reason: ... bearing in mind that the Chachamim forbade all types of Hana'ah, to the point that, even a woman that he betrothed with it is not Mekudeshes ...

ëãúðï áúåñôúà ã÷ãåùéï (ô"ã) 'äî÷ãù áééï ðñê (åáò"æ) áòåøåú ìáåáéí ... ' ,àò"ô ù÷ãù áãîéäï, àéðä î÷åãùú.'

2.

Source: ... as we learned in the Tosefta of Kidushin (Perek 4) 'If someone betroths with Yayin Nesech or with Oros Levuvin (the skin of the heart of Avodah-Zarah that has been removed), the Kidushin is not valid, even if he betrothed her with the proceeds of their sale' ...

àáì çåìéï áòæøä àé äåé ãøáðï å÷éãù áå àú äàùä, î÷åãùú- ìëê çùéá ãîøéä.

(d)

Refutation (cont.): ... whereas if one is Mekadesh a woman with Chulin ba'Azarah, assuming it is only mi'de'Rabanan, the woman is Mekudeshes - Therefore it is considered the owner's ...

ãáñåó äàéù î÷ãù (÷ãåùéï ãó ðç.) ÷úðé âáé 'çåìéï ùðùçèå áòæøä' " -øáé ùîòåï àåîø î÷åãùú.' " åôøéê 'àìîà ÷ñáø øáé ùîòåï "çåìéï ùðùçèå áòæøä ìàå ãàåøééúà"? '.

1.

Refutation (concl.): ... because at the end of 'ha'Ish Mekadesh' (Kidushin, Daf 58a) in connection with 'Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah', the Mishnah, quoting Rebbi Shimon, rules 'Mekudeshes', and the Gemara asks 'So we see that Rebbi Shimon holds 'Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah La'av d'Oraysa?'

åîéäå àéñåø àëéìä ãäåé åãàé ãàåøééúà éù ìã÷ã÷, îùîòúéï ãìòéì ãôèøé øáðï ùåçè ìò"æ îùåí ùçéèä ùàéï øàåéä...

(e)

The Isur Achilah is Different: We can however, extrapolate that the Isur Achilah is definitely d'Oraysa from the Sugya earlier (on Daf 71a), where the Rabanan declare Patur someone who Shechts an animal to Avodah-Zarah because it is an unfit Shechitah' ...

åàé àéñåø àëéìä ìà äåé àìà îãøáðï, ìà äéä ðçùá áëê ùçéèä ùàéðä øàåéä, ëîå îòùä ãùáú ìîàï ãàîø ãøáðï.

1.

Proof: ... and if the Isur Achilah was only mi'de'Rabanan, it would not be classified as 'an unfit Shechitah'.

åà"ì, ãàé àñåø áàëéìä ãàåøééúà, äééðå òì ëøçê îùåí ãäå÷ùä ìîú ...

(f)

Refuted Question: One cannot ask that if it would be Asur to eat min ha'Torah, that would have to be because it is compared to a Meis (Avodah-Zarah, Daf 29b) ...

îäàé èòîà ðîé úéàñø áäðàä ëîú?

1.

Refuted Question (cont.): ... in which case, by the same token, it should also be Asur be'Hana'ah, like a Meis?

ãé"ì, ëéåï ãëúéá "åéàëìå æáçé îúéí," ìàëéìä àéú÷åù åìà ìäðàä.

(g)

Refutation: ... since the Torah writes "Va'yochlu Zivchei Meisim", they are only compared with regard to eating, but not with regard to Hana'ah.

7)

TOSFOS DH RAVA AMAR MI'KA'AN U'LE'HABA HU NIFSAL

úåñ' ã"ä øáà àîø îëàï åìäáà äåà ðôñì

(Summary: Tosfos queries Rava from his own statement in Perek Chezkas ha'Batim.)

úéîä, [ãáøéù] çæ÷ú äáúéí (á"á ãó ìà. åùí) àîø 'æä àåîø "ùì àáåúé åàëìúéä ùðé çæ÷ä" ,åæä àåîø "ùì àáåúé åàëìúéä ùðé çæ÷ä... "

(a)

Question: At the beginning of 'Chezkas ha'Batim' (Bava Basra, Daf 31a [See Tosfos, DH 'Amar Leih]) we learned that in the event that Reuven and Shimon claim that the field belonged to their respective father and that they ate the three years of Chazakah in the field ...

äàé àééúé ñäãé ãàáäúéä äéà åàëìä ùðé çæ÷ä, åäàé àééúé ñäãé ãàëìä ùðé çæ÷ä ...

1.

Question (cont.): ... and that if Reuven brings witnesses that it belonged to his father and that he ate the three years in the field, and Shimon, that he ate the three years of Chazakah ...

àîø øá ðçîï "àå÷é àëéìúà áäãé àëéìúà, åàå÷é àøòà áçæ÷ú àáäúéä." àîø ìéä øáà 'åäà òãåú îåëçùú äéà'?

2.

Question (cont.): ... Rav Nachman rules that the two Achilos cancel each other out and we place the field in the Chazakah of Reuven's father. On which Rava asks that their testimonies are contradictory (and ought therefore to be negated)?

åäùúà àîàé äåé îåëçùú- äà øáà àéú ìéä äëà 'îëàï åìäáà äåà ðôñì' åàéú ìï ìîéîø ìãéãéä à'àëéìä ãàéúëçåù àéúëçåù, åà'àáäúà ãìà àéúëçåù ìà àéúëçåù?

3.

Question (concl.): But why is this considered contradictory - seeing as Rava holds here 'mi'Ka'an u'le'Haba hu Nifsal', in which case we ought to say, according to him that, on the Achilah on which they contradicted one another, they have been disproved, but on the father's ownership, on which they did not contradict one another, Reuven has not been disproved?

îéãé ãäåé à'ùðéí îòéãéí àåúå ùâðá åèáç, åäåæîå à'èáéçä ...

(b)

Precedent: ... like in the case where the two witnesses who testified that Levi stole an animal and Shechted it, became Zom'min on the Shechitah ...

ãìøáà ãàîø 'îëàï åìäáà äåà ðôñì', àò"â ã'úåê ëãé ãéáåø ëãéáåø ãîé , ' ëéåï ãîääéà ùòúà ã÷à îúæîé äåà ãôñìé à'èáéçä ãàéúæåí àéúæåí, à'âðéáä ãìà àéúæåí ìà àéúæåí, ëãîåëç ì÷îï?

1.

Precedent (cont.): Where, according to Rava who says 'mi'Ka'an u'le'Haba hu Nifsal', even though 'Toch k'dei Dibur ke'Dibur Dami' (See Mesores ha'Shas), since they only become Pasul from the time that they became Zom'min, on the Shechitah, on which they contradicted one another, they are Zom'min, but on the Geneivah, on which they did not contradict each other, they are not Zom'min, as is evident later.

åìäàé èòîà ãîôøù îùåí 'çéãåù,' ðéçà.

(c)

Answer #1: According to the reason that it is a Chidush, there is no problem (See Mesores ha'Shas) ...

àáì ìèòîà ãäåé îùåí 'ôñéãà ãì÷åçåú', ÷ùä...

(d)

Extension of Question: ... and the Kashya is confined to the reason of 'the purchasers' loss' ...

ãàéï ðøàä ãð÷è 'ì÷åçåú' ãå÷à...

1.

Reason: ... since it does not seem that the Gemara mentioned exclusively purchasers ...

'îãìà ÷àîø 'àéëà áéðééäå ëì òãåú ùàéï ìòðéï ì÷åçåú' .

2.

Reason (cont.): ... since it does not state that the difference between the two reasons is cases that do not involve purchasers.

åé"ì, ãìîàé ãîçì÷ äúí áéï àåúä òãåú ìòãåú àçøú, ðéçà...

(e)

Answer: According to the distinction that the Gemara draws there between the same testimony and a different one, the problem falls away ...

ãëéåï ãäåçæ÷å îù÷øéí òì àåúä ÷ø÷ò, úå ìà îäéîðé òìä...

1.

Reason: ... because, since they have been proven to be liars on that land, they are no longer believed on it ...

àáì äëà, àò"ô ùäåçæ÷å îù÷øéí òì äèáéçä, ìà äåçæ÷å îù÷øéí òì äâðéáä...

2.

Reason (cont.): ... whereas in our case, even though they have been proven to be liars on the Shechitah, they have not been proven to be liars on the Geneivah ...

ãìà çùéá ìéä ëàåúä òãåú.

3.

Reason (concl.): ... which is not considered to be the same testimony.

8)

TOSFOS DH EIN L'CHA BO ELA MI'SHA'AS CHIDUSHO VA'EILECH

úåñ' ã"ä àéï ìê áå àìà îùòú çéãåùå åàéìê

(Summary: Tosfos queries Rava's opinion and explains it in detail.)

àéï ìä÷ùåú, îðà ìéä ãîäéîðé äîæéîéï ìôåñìï? ðéîà ãàéï ìê ìøáåéé àìà çéãåùå "åòùéúí ìå ëàùø æîí" ,àáì àéï ðôñìéï...

(a)

Refuted Question: One cannot ask how Rava knows that they are believed to render the first witnesses Pasul - Why we do not say that one can only include the Chidush as it is - 'to do to them what they planned to do ... ', but not to render them Pasul ...

ãåãàé ëéåï ãîùìîéï îîåï åðäøâéí, ë"ù ðôñìéï, ãìà äîðéðäå øçîðà ìçöàéï.

(b)

Refutation: ... because, seeing as they pay money or are put to death, how much more so do they become Pasul, since the Torah would not half-believe them.

àáì ÷ùä ,ãìøá çñãà ãàîø áçæ÷ú äáúéí (á"á ùí:) 'ùúé ëéúé òãéí äîëçéùåú æå àú æå, " áäãé ñäãé ù÷øé ìîä ìé' ?" ...

(c)

Question: According to Rav Chisda, who rules in 'Chezkas ha'Batim' (Bava Basra, Ibid. Amud b) that when two pairs of witnesses contradict one another 'What do we have to do with false witnesses?' (and they are both Pasul) ...

àí ëï, àéï çéãåù îä ùðôñìéï? àãøáä îä ùäîæéîéï ëùøéí äåé çéãåù ìøá çñãà? ...

1.

Question (cont.): The fact that they are Pasul is no Chidush? If anything, the fact that the Mazimin are Kasher is a Chidush according to Rav Chisda? ...

åäúí áòé ìîéîø ãøáà ëøá çñãà?

2.

Question (concl.): ... and the Gemara there tries to establish Rava like Rav Chisda?

åé"ì, ãìîàé ãáòé ìîéîø äúí ãøáà ëøá çñãà, ìà äåé èòîà ãøáà îùåí 'çéãåù' àìà îùåí ôñéãà ãì÷åçåú.

(d)

Answer #1: According to the attempt to establish Rava like Rav Chisda, Rava's reason is due, not to the fact that it is a Chidush, but to the purchaser's loss.

åìîñ÷ðà ãäúí ãîå÷é ìéä ëøá äåðà ãàîø 'æå áàä áôðé òöîä... ' äåé çéãåù îä ùðôñìéï ÷îàé.

1.

Answer #1 (cont.): And it is according to the outcome of the Gemara there, which establishes Rava like Rav Huna, who rules that 'Each pair can come independently and testify' that the fact that the first pair are Pasul is a Chidush.

åäà ãîùðé øáà áôø÷ ëì äðùáòéï (ùáåòåú ãó îç. åùí) àìéáà ãøá çñãà 'îúðéúéï ãøàù äùðä... '

(e)

Implied Question: And when Rava in Perek Kol ha'Nishba'in (Shevu'os, Daf 48a & 48b) explains the Mishnah in Rosh ha'Shanah according to Rav Chisda ...

ìàå îùåí ãñ"ì ëååúéä.

(f)

Answer: ... it is not because he concurs with him.

åòé"ì, ãìøá çñãà ðîé äåé çéãåù îä ùðôñìéï åãàé.

(g)

Answer #2 (to original question): Alternatively, the fact that they are Vaday Pasul is a Chidush even according to Chisda ...

åäàé ãçùéá ìäå 'ñäãé ù÷øé' áùúé ëéúé òãéí, àéðå àìà îñôé÷à...

1.

Answer #2 (cont.): ... since when it considers the two pairs of witnesses false witnesses, it is only mi'Safek ...

åàí äéå ùðéí îï äùå÷ îòéãéï 'ôìåðé ìåä îôìåðé îðä' åàçú îùúé ëéúé òãéí äììå äîëçéùåú æå àú æå àåîøú 'ìà ìåä,' ìà äééúé îåöéà îîåï îñô÷.

2.

Answer #2 (concl.): ... and if two witnesses from outside were to testify that Reuven borrowed a Manah from Shimon, and one of those two contradicting pairs testified that he did not, we would not extract money from a Safek.

åàéìå äîåæîéí ôñåìéí ìâîøé àôé' ìäçæé÷ äîîåï òì ôéäï;

3.

Answer #2 (concl.): ... Whereas the Muzamim are completely Pasul, even to rely on them to establish ownership over the money that a person already has in his possession ...

äìëê çéãåù äåà; åìâáé äëé, àéï ìê áå àìà îùòú çéãåù åàéìê ìçåùáí ëåãàé ôñåìéï.

(h)

Conclusion: ... That is why it is a Chidush; and it is in this regard that it is only from the time of the Chidush and onwards that they are considered Vaday Pesulin (See Mesores ha'Shas).

åìôé æä äåä îöé ìîéîø ãàéëà áéðééäå ëì ùèøé îìåä åî÷ç äáàéï ìäåöéà, ãìèòîà ã'ôñéãà ãì÷åçåú' ðàîðéí ìäåöéà...

(i)

Implied Question: According to that, the Gemara could have established the difference (between the two reasons), by all Sh'taros regarding loans or business transactions that come to extract money, which, according to the reason of 'P'seida di'Lekuchos', they are believed to extract money ...

àìà ãìà çùéá àìà îéìúà ãàéëà áéðééäå áéï ìøá äåðà áéï ìøá çñãà.

(j)

Answer: ... only the Gemara confines its list to differences that conform to the opinions of both Rav Huna and Rav Chisda.

åàí úàîø, åìîä äåé çéãåù ëìì, åäìà îï äãéï éù ìäàîéï áúøàé áîéâå ãàé áòå äåå ôñìé ì÷îàé áâæìðåúà?

(k)

Question: Why is it considered a Chidush at all? Why do we not believe them with a 'Migu' that they could have declared them Pasul, by testifying that they are thieves? ...

åáùúé ëéúé òãéí äîëçéùåú æå àú æå ìéäîðé áúøàé áîéâå áéï ìøá äåðà áéï ìøá çñãà?

1.

Question (cont.): ... and in the case of two pairs of witnesses that contradict one another, the latter pair ought then to be believed according to both Rav Huna and Rav Chisda?

åàåø"é, ãìà ùééê îéâå àìà áàãí àçã, àáì áùðé áðé àãí ìà ùééê îéâå...

(l)

Answer #1: The Ri explains that 'Migu' is only applicable to a single person, but not to two people ...

ãàéï ãòú ùðéäí ùåä, åîä ùéøöä ìèòåï æä ìà éèòåï æä.

1.

Reason: ... since they are not of one mind, and what one of them intends to claim, the other one does not.

åòåã ðøàä ã÷öú ãîé äàé îéâå ìîéâå áî÷åí òãéí, ùäøé éù òãéí ëðâã äàé îéâå ìäëçéùí.

(m)

Answer #2: It also seems that this 'Migu' is somewhat similar to 'a Migu that contradicts the testimony of witnesses', since there are witnesses that counter the 'Migu' to disprove them.

åàò"ô ùéù ëîå ëï òãéí òí äîéâå, àéï áëê ëìåí.

1.

Refuted Question: And the fact that there are also witnesses that conform to the 'Migu' makes no difference.

[åòåã] ãìà òãéó îéâå îòãéí...

(n)

Answer #3: Furthermore, 'Migu' is no better than witnesses ...

ùàí äéå òãéí îñééòéí ìàìå ìà äéä ìäí ëç ìäëçéù àú àìå, ãäà 'úøé ëîàä,' åë"ù îéâå.

1.

Answer #3 (cont.): ... Consequently, if other witnesses who bear out their testimony will not help to disprove the second pair - based on the principle 'Two are as good as a hundred', how much more so a 'Migu'!

åäà ãàîø áô"á ãëúåáåú (ãó éç: åùí) 'ùðéí äçúåîéí òì äùèø åàîøå "÷èðéí àå àðåñéí äééðå" ... àí àéï ëúá éãí éåöà îî÷åí àçø, äøé àìå ðàîðéí' ...

(o)

Implied Question: When the Gemara states in the second Perek of Kesuvos (Daf 18b & 19a) regarding two witnesses who signed on a Sh'tar, and who claim that they were small children or that they were forced to sign ... that 'provided their signatures do not appear anywhere else, they are believed' ...

äàé ìàå îéâå äåà ...

(p)

Answer: That is not a 'Migu' ...

ùàéï äùèø îú÷ééí àìà òì ôéäí, å'äôä ùàñø äåà äôä ùäúéø... '

1.

Answer (cont.): ... seeing as the Sh'tar is only verified via their testimony, but 'ha'Peh she'Asar hu ha'Peh she'Hitir' ...

ëãàîøéðï äúí áääåà ôéø÷à (ãó ëá:) 'îðéï ìäôä ùàñåø äåà äôä ùäúéø? åôøéê 'äà ìî"ì ÷øà?' ñáøà äåà!

2.

Source: ... as the Gemara states there in the same Perek (Daf 22b) in reply to the question from where we know 'Peh she'Asar' - Why do we need a Pasuk? It is a S'vara!'

åá'ùðéí äçúåîéí òì äùèø åîúå, åáàå á' îï äùå÷ åàîøå "÷èðéí àå àðåñéí àå ôñåìé òãåú äéå" ... '

(q)

Clarification of Sugya in Kesuvos: And in the case (Ibid.) of two witnesses who signed a Sh'tar and died, and along came two other people from outside and testified that they were children, forced or Pasul from testifying ...

ãàîø äúí ãàé ëúá éãí éåöà îî÷åí àçø, àéï ðàîðéí àìà äåå úøé åúøé?

1.

Clarification of Sugya in Kesuvos (cont.): ... on which the Gemara rules there that assuming that their signatures appeared elsewhere, the latter pair are not believed, but it is a case of two against two.

ö"ì ã'ôñåìé òãåú' ã÷àîø äééðå ÷øåáéí...

(r)

Chidush: ... we must say that 'Pasul from testifying' that the Tana mentioned means that they are relatives (See Maharsha) ...

ãàé âæìðéí, äåé àìå ðàîðéí àôéìå äéå áôðéðå.

1.

Reason: ... because if they testified that that they are thieves, they would be believed even if they were still alive.

åòåã éù úéøåöéí àçøéí, åàéï ìäàøéê ëàï.

(s)

Conclusion: There are more answers to the question, but this is not the place to elaborate.

9)

TOSFOS DH MI'KA'AN U'LE'HABA HU NIFSAL

úåñ' ã"ä îëàï åìäáà äåà ðôñì

(Summary: Tosfos establishes the case where the Sh'tar was seen before the Hazamah took place.)

ðøàä ùàí ìà ðøàä äùèø òã ìàçø äæîä, àó òì ôé ùæîðå îå÷ãí ìäæîä, îåãä øáà ãìà îùâçéðï áéä ...

(a)

Clarification: It seems that if the Sh'tar was not seen until after the Hazamah, Rava will concede that we do not take it into account, even though the date precedes the Hazamah.

ãîé éåãò' ùîà àçø äæîä ëúáå àìå äîåæîéí æä äùèø, åä÷ãéîå æîðå?

1.

Reason: ... because who's to say that these Muzamim did not write it later, inserting an earlier date?

åäà ãàîø ãàéï ðôñì ìîôøò, äééðå áùèø ùðøàä ÷åãí äæîä.

(b)

Clarification (cont.): ... and when Rava says that the Sh'tar is not Pasul retroactively, that speaks specifically where it was seen before the Hazamah.