87b----------------------------------------87b

1)

IS THERE KEDUSHAH ABOVE A BEIS HA'KENESES? [Beis ha'Keneses: Kedushah: above]

(a)

Gemara

1.

32a: According to the opinion that Bi'ah b'Miktzas (partial entering) is like full Bi'ah, a Tamei may not stand outside the Mikdash and stick his hands for Semichah (to press on the neck of a Korban)!

2.

55b (Rami bar Rav Yehudah): There was a Lul (window) enabling one to see into the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim from the back. This permitted Shechitah in back of the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim.

3.

87b - Question: Is the airspace above the Mizbe'ach (Mekadesh what enters it,) like the Mizbe'ach (is Mekadesh what touches it)?

4.

88a - Answer (Rav Simi bar Ashi): The airspace must be like the Mizbe'ach. If not, how could we do Haza'as Dam of a Pasul Chatas ha'Of or Zerikas Dam of a Pasul Zevach (i.e. animal)?! Once the blood leaves the bird or the bucket, it was Yored (descended) from the Mizbe'ach (and then one may not offer it)!

i.

You cannot say that the blood is put directly on the Mizbe'ach, without passing through the air. That is not Haza'ah (or Zerikah). It is Mitzuy (squeezing, or Shefichah (pouring))! Also, this is not the normal way to do Haza'ah or Zerikah!

5.

(Rav Ashi): If a Kohen is holding a Korban on the Mizbe'ach, surely it is as if the Korban is on the Mizbe'ach. We ask whether the Mizbe'ach is Mekadesh something hanging on a reed in its airspace.

6.

The question is unsettled.

7.

Pesachim 85b (Rav): The roofs and Aliyos (upper stories) did not receive Kedushah.

8.

Question: Rav said in the name of R. Chiya that a k'Zayis of Pesach and Hallel (almost) pierced the roof! I.e., they ate Pesach on the roof. (I.e. the roofs were Mekudashos.)

9.

Answer: No, they ate on the ground floor and sang Hallel on the roof.

10.

Question (Beraisa - Aba Sha'ul): The Aliyah above the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim had more Kedushah than the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim.

11.

Answer (Rav Yosef): The Heichal is different, for it says "Tavnis ha'Ulam... v'Aliyosav" and "ha'Kol bi'Chsav mi'Yad Hash-m Alai Hiskil" (it is all Kadosh).

12.

Question (Mishnah): If a Lishkah (chamber in the walls of the Azarah) is built in Kodesh (the inside is in the Azarah) and its only opening is Chol (a place without Kedushas Azarah), the inside is Chol and the roof is Kodesh.

13.

Answer (Rav Chisda): The case is, (it is below the Azarah;) its roof is even with the Azarah.

14.

Question (against Rav - Beraisa): The roof (of the Heichal) is Kodesh.

15.

Counter-question (Beraisa): One may not eat Kodshei Kodoshim or slaughter Kodshim Kalim on these roofs (of the Azarah and its Lishkos).

16.

Answer (Rav Chama bar Gurya): The roof (of the Heichal) is Kodesh for putting there Klei Kodesh.

17.

Shevu'os 17a - Question (Rava): If one (was Tamei and) suspended himself in the air above the Azarah, what is the law?

18.

Does the time for Hishtachava'ah apply only to one who could bow (but one who could not bow is exempt)? Or, does it apply to anyone Tamei in the Mikdash, whether or not he can bow?

19.

This question is not resolved.

20.

17b (Beraisa): One may not eat Kodshei Kodoshim or slaughter Kodshim on the roofs of the Azarah.

21.

Makos 12a (Mishnah): If a tree is within Yerushalayim and the foliage is outside, or vice-versa, any place on the tree is judged like the ground below (regarding eating or redeeming Ma'aser Sheni).

22.

Shabbos 11a (Rava bar Machsiya): If the roofs in a city are taller than the Beis ha'Keneses, in the end it will be destroyed - "Leromem Es Beis Elokeinu u'Leha'amid Es Charvosav";

23.

This is only if the houses are taller. We are not concerned for buildings and towers (made for beauty).

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rambam (Hilchos Ma'aseh ha'Korbanos 5:4): Kodshim slaughtered on the roof of the Heichal are Pesulim. One may not slaughter on the roof, only on the floor of the Azarah.

i.

Kesef Mishneh: Rav taught that the roofs and Aliyos did not receive Kedushah. We challenged him and answered that the Heichal is different. It seems that the Aliyos were Mekudashos, and the same applies to the roofs. However, perhaps the Aliyos are different because the verse mentions them, but the roofs were not Mekudashos. The Rambam says 'only on the floor of the Azarah' to exclude Aliyos.

2.

Rambam (Hilchos Shegagos 11:4): If someone Tamei suspended himself in the airspace above the Azarah, it is a Safek whether the airspace above the Azarah is like the Azarah.

3.

Tosfos (Shevu'os 17a DH Talah): Some texts say 'is the airspace above the Azarah like the Azarah, or not?' This is difficult, for in Zevachim we say that if Bi'ah b'Miktzas is like full Bi'ah, a Tamei may not stick his hand in! Also, if the airspace above the Azarah were unlike the Azarah, limbs and blood carried to the Mizbe'ach would be disqualified due to leaving the Azarah! Rather, Rava asked whether the time for Hishtachava'ah applies only to one who could bow.

4.

Tosfos (Makos 12a DH Ilan): Here we say that the part of a tree within the wall (of Yerushalayim) is considered inside. In Pesachim, we say that the roofs have no Kedushah. If so, one may not eat Ma'aser on the tree! We can answer that it has few branches, and they do not span four (by four Tefachim). They are not important, so it is as if he stands in the airspace opposite the ground. We can even say that it has many branches, and the air of Yerushalayim is like Yerushalayim.

i.

Maharsha: The latter answer holds that we say that the roofs were not Kodesh only regarding the air of the Azarah. However, the airspace of Yerushalayim is like Yerushalayim.

ii.

Question (Mishneh l'Melech): In Pesachim we say that the one who says that the roofs were not Mekudashos says so even about Yerushalayim! This is clear from the question against Rav from eating Pesach on the roof. How can the Maharsha say that Tosfos holds that airspace is unlike the Azarah? In Shevu'os, Tosfos proved that it is like the Azarah! In Zevachim 87, we asked whether the airspace above the Mizbe'ach is like the Mizbe'ach. We concluded that if a Kohen holds it on the Mizbe'ach, it is as if it is on the Mizbe'ach. We ask about something hanging on a reed in its airspace. I.e. even though the Mizbe'ach is more Kodesh than the Azarah, surely its airspace is like itself. Tosfos proved that airspace is like the Azarah from the Behonos (ear, thumb and toe) of a Metzora standing outside. This is like something hanging on a reed. We must say that in such a case airspace is like the Azarah, but it is not resolved regarding the Mizbe'ach.

iii.

Mordechai (Shabbos 218): Rabbeinu Meir was unsure if one may use an Aliyah over a Beis ha'Keneses. Even the roofs and Aliyos of the Azarah were not Mekudashos. However, perhaps it is like the Aliyos of the Heichal, which were Mekudashos. We should treat our small Mikdash (Beis ha'Keneses) with some Kedushah of the Heichal. Even though Aliyos and roofs of the Azarah did not get Kedushas Azarah, one may not act disgracefully there.

iv.

Radvaz (2:691): Aliyos over the Azarah are Kodesh, and nowadays one may not enter them. The Gemara did not resolve the question of one who suspended himself above the Azarah. The Rambam holds that the Kedushah was permanent, so it is an Isur Torah and one must be stringent. Tosfos is sure that the air is Kodesh. Even though we say that one who entered the Heichal through roofs is exempt, it is forbidden (Rambam (Hilchos Bi'as Mikdash 3:19). If Tosfos agrees that the Aliyos are not Kodesh, except for those over the Heichal, why it is forbidden to enter them nowadays? The Aliyos of that time were not Mekudashos, but perhaps those built nowadays are in the airspace of the Azarah or of chambers (with Kedushas Azarah). It is a Safek (and therefore forbidden). Nowadays, people go there and no one protests. This is because the Ra'avad says that nowadays there is no Kares for entering the Mikdash, and perhaps they are not over the Azarah, and even if they are, perhaps the airspace above the Azarah is unlike the Azarah. Our text says that Rava asked this question, and it was not resolved. Since people have such a desire to see the Mikdash, and there are so many Sefekos, they are lenient. However, it is proper to be stringent.

v.

Tzlach (Pesachim 86a): The Aliyos of the Heichal are unlike the other Aliyos in the Azarah. Why did the Rambam omit this? He says that all of them are Kodesh! I answer that Aliyos are no worse than tunnels. Tunnels are Kodesh only if they open to the Azarah. Likewise, Aliyos that have entrances from the Azarah are Kodesh. We need not distinguish between those over the Heichal or the rest of the Azarah. Even though we say that tunnels with windows open to the Azarah are unlike the Azarah, we must say that windows are not called open to the Azarah, for they are not made to enter and exit from them.

vi.

Rebuttal (Beis Shlomo OC 28): There is no source to say that it depends on being used for entry and exit. We find that even a small window is considered an opening to permit Shechitas Kodshim. Tosfos (Shevu'os 17b DH v'Ein) says that a small hole through which one can see the Azarah does not permit eating or Shechitas Kodshim on a roof over the Azarah. However, perhaps this is only if it is less than three (by three) Tefachim, for it is not called an opening. The Rambam disqualifies Shechitah on the roof of the Heichal, but not in Aliyos of the Heichal. He disqualifies Aliyos only of the Azarah. One who reads the Kesef Mishneh carefully will see so. This is why the Mordechai was unsure about Aliyos of a Beis ha'Keneses.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (OC 151:12): One may not use an Aliyah above a Beis ha'Keneses in a disgraceful way. It is doubtful whether one may make other uses there.

i.

Mishnah Berurah (39): This connotes that one may lie there on occasion.

ii.

Mishnah Berurah (40): Sha'arei Teshuvah says that one may be lenient about other uses, except for over the Aron Kodesh.

iii.

Beis Shlomo (ibid.): May one transform a Beis ha'Keneses to be an Ezras Nashim? We may not lower Kedushah from a Beis Medrash to a Beis ha'Keneses, according to R. Yehoshua ben Levi and Rav Papi. To build an Ezras Nashim on a dome over a Beis Medrash decreases the Kedushah. The air above the Azarah is like the Azarah, like Tosfos and the Rishonim (Shevu'os 17a) say. They argue with R. Chananel, who says that the Gemara asked whether the air above the Azarah is like the Azarah. They brought awesome proofs that it is surely like the Azarah. Also the Mishneh l'Melech brought proofs. They compare Kedushas Beis ha'Keneses and Beis Medrash only to Kedushas Azarah. If so, the airspace has Kedushas Beis Medrash. One may not demote it to Kedushas Ezras Nashim. Even though the floor was built over a dome, which separates it from being the airspace of the Beis Medrash, it already received Kedushas Beis Medrash, and the Kedushah does not vanish. The Radvaz says that if a roof was built over something with Kedushas Azarah, it retains Kedushas Azarah. We can explain Tosfos' second answer (unlike the Maharsha, which the Mishneh l'Melech challenged severely) to discuss a tree that grew after Yerushalayim became Kodesh. However, it seems that we say that the airspace above the Azarah is like the Azarah when it is as if it rests on the ground, like R. Akiva says (about throwing on Shabbos). Regarding Shabbos the Halachah does not follow R. Akiva, for we require a proper Hanachah, but elsewhere we follow him. The Rashba and Ran (Gitin 79) compare the airspace of a Kli to airspace of a Kli Kodesh.

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF