TRANSFERRING OWNERSHIP OF KORBANOS (cont.)
Question (Ula or R. Oshaya): If Shimon designated money for his Pesach and Reuven designated a lamb, how can the Kedushah of Hekdesh transfer to something that is already Hekdesh, so that the money is Chulin in Reuven's hand?!
Abaye: I initially had my own answer to this question - but I defer to R. Oshaya, who would answer differently! (If the question was asked by R. Oshaya, perhaps we must say that Abaye defers to R. Hoshaya - indeed, the text in Temurah cites R. Hoshaya.)
R. Oshaya said that Beraisa #2 (below) is like Rebbi [who considers Pesach to be the owner's property, for one does not totally Makdish it] - it discusses Minuy of a harlot on a Pesach [in exchange for her services].
Answer #1 (based on R. Oshaya): Beraisa #1 is Rebbi - the money becomes Chulin because its Kedushah transfers to the Pesach, which was not fully Kodesh!
(Abaye): I would have said that Beraisa #2 discusses Kodshim Kalim, and it is like R. Yosi ha'Gelili who considers them to be the property of the owner!
I would not have said that it discusses Pesach, for one does not make Kedushas Pesach conditional - it is totally Kodesh, one cannot give it for a gift.
However, Rebbi holds that people Makdish money conditionally [that it will be like Chulin given as a gift in exchange for Minuy].
Answer #2 (Abaye's initial answer): Beraisa #1 is Rebbi; the money is Chulin because people Makdish it conditionally.
We cannot establish Beraisa #1 like R. Yosi ha'Gelili, for it says that a sale of an Olah or Shelamim does not take effect (a Shelamim is Kodshim Kalim, R. Yosi ha'Gelili holds that one owns it and can give it)!
Question: What is this teaching of R. Oshaya?
Answer (Mishnah): (Esnan Zonah (the hire of a harlot) and Mechir Kelev (something exchanged for a dog) are Pasul for Korbanos.) If Korbanos were given for an Esnan, they are Kesherim; if Chulin birds were given, they are Pesulim;
Suggestion: A Kal va'Chomer should permit birds! A Mum is Posel a Korban, yet the Pesulim of Esnan and Mechir do not take effect on a Korban - a Mum does not Posel a bird, all the more so Esnan and Mechir should not take effect on it!
Rejection: "L'Chol Neder" includes birds (Esnan and Mechir apply to them).
(Beraisa #2) Suggestion: A Kal va'Chomer should teach that Esnan and Mechir take effect on Kodshim!
A Mum does not Posel a bird, yet Esnan and Mechir take effect on it - a Mum is Posel a Korban, all the more so Esnan and Mechir should take effect on it!
Rejection: "L'Chol Neder" excludes something already Nadur (made Hekdesh, i.e. Kodshim).
Inference: If not for the verse, Esnan would take effect on Kodshim.
Question: [Kodshim belong to Hash-m -] one cannot forbid something that he does not own [regarding Isurim that depend on ownership, e.g. giving an Esnan]!
Answer (R. Oshaya): The Beraisa discusses Minuy of a harlot on a Pesach, it is like Rebbi:
(Beraisa): "V'Im Yim'at ha'Bayis mi'Hyos mi'Seh" - [if the household is lacking,] sustain it through the Seh (sell shares of the Pesach) - this is permitted to get money for food, but not for Mekach (this will be explained);
Rebbi says, one may sell shares of Pesach or Chagigah even for Mekach, and the money is Chulin - Yisraelim are Makdish their Pesachim with this intent.
(Rabah or R. Zeira): All agree that one may sell shares in order to buy wood to roast Pesach - since it is a need of Pesach, it is like Pesach itself;
They argue about selling to buy Matzah and Maror - Chachamim consider this like eating something else; Rebbi considers it like Pesach, since they must be eaten with Pesach.
(The other of Rabah and R. Zeira): They also agree about Matzah and Maror - since they are needed for Pesach, they are like Pesach itself;
They argue about selling to buy a garment - Chachamim expound "Mi'Hyos mi'Seh" like 'Hachayehu l'Seh' (sustain the needs of the Korban), Rebbi expounds Hachaye (sustain) yourself from the Seh.
Question: Abaye said that if not for R. Oshaya, he would have established Beraisa #2 like R. Yosi ha'Gelili, who considers Kodshim Kalim to be the property of the owner, but not Pesach, for one does not make Kedushas Pesach conditional;
In the Beraisa Rebbi explicitly says 'Yisraelim Makdish their Pesachim with this intent'!
Answer: It means that Yisraelim are Makdish the money for their Pesachim with this intent.
SLAUGHTER FOR ONE WHO WILL BE TAHOR AT NIGHT
(Mishnah): We slaughter Pesach for a Zav who has seen two emissions, on the seventh day [from the second emission]; if he saw three emissions, we slaughter for him on the eighth day [even before he brought birds - he may bring them after Pesach].
We slaughter for a Shomeres Yom k'Neged Yom [on the morrow of when she saw, i.e. if she saw one day we slaughter] on her second day; if she saw two days, we slaughter on her third day;
We slaughter for a Zavah on her eighth day.
(Gemara - Rav): We slaughter and Zorek for a Tevul Yom or a Mechusar Kipurim, but not for one who is Tamei Sheretz;
(Ula): We slaughter and Zorek even for one who is Tamei Sheretz.
Question: According to Rav, we slaughter for a Tevul Yom because he will be able to eat at night - also a Tamei Sheretz will be able to eat at night [if he immerses before dark]!
Answer: The Tamei Sheretz needs to do an action [to become permitted], whereas the Tevul Yom becomes permitted automatically [at dark].
Question: Rav says that we slaughter for a Mechusar Kipurim, even though he needs [to do an action, i.e.] to bring his Korban for Kaparah!
Answer #1: The case is, he has the birds in his hand [he is ready to offer them].
Question: Likewise, we should slaughter for a Tamei Sheretz who is right in front of a Mikveh!
Answer #1: We are concerned lest he will not immerse.
Objection: If so, we should also be concerned lest the Mechusar Kipurim not bring his Kaparah!
Answer #2 (to Question (h)): Rather, the case is, he gave the money for the birds to Beis Din - this is like Rav Shemayah:
(Rav Shemayah): (In the Mikdash there was a box for Kinim - a Mechusar Kipurim would put four Zuz in the box, Kohanim would offer Chatas ha'Of and Olas ha'Of for every four Zuz inside.) There is a Chazakah that the Beis Din of Kohanim does not leave [the Mikdash] until they finish [offering birds bought with] all the money in the box.
Question: Rav holds that mid'Oraisa we may slaughter and Zorek for a Tamei Sheretz - mid'Rabanan we do not, lest he not immerse;
But Rav said that if Yisrael was half Tehorim and half Temei'im, we Metamei one person with a Sheretz to make the majority Temei'im, so everyone can bring Pesach together b'Tum'ah;
If mid'Oraisa we may slaughter for a Tamei Sheretz, he is like a Tahor!
Answer #2 (to Question (i:1)): Indeed, Rav holds that mid'Oraisa we may not slaughter for him - he learns from "Ish Ish Ki Yihyeh Tamei la'Nefesh;"
Suggestion: This discusses a Tamei Mes on his seventh day which is Erev Pesach [who did not immerse yet] - this is just like a Tamei Sheretz, and the Torah says that he may not bring Pesach Rishon!
Question: What is the source that this is so?
Answer: He holds like R. Yitzchak, who says that the people who could not bring Pesach [in the Midbar] had become Tamei for a Mes Mitzvah (an unattended corpse), and their seventh day [on which they could complete Taharah] was on Erev Pesach;
He learns from "V'Lo Yachlu La'asos ha'Pesach ba'Yom ha'Hu" - but they would have been able to bring it the next day, and the Torah says that they could not bring Pesach Rishon!
Question (Mishnah): We slaughter Pesach for a two-emission Zav on his seventh day.
Suggestion: The case is, he did not yet immerse - likewise, we slaughter and Zorek for a Tamei Sheretz.
Answer: No - the case is, he already immersed.
Question: If so, what is the Chidush?
Answer: It teaches that even though he is not Tahor until night, since this happens automatically, we slaughter for him.
Support (Seifa): If he saw three emissions, we slaughter for him on the eighth day.
If the Reisha discusseses slaughtering for a two-emission Zav after immersion, one might have thought that we slaughter for him because he becomes Tahor automatically, the Seifa teaches that we slaughter even before he brought his Kaparah;
But if the Reisha discusseses before immersion, even though he is fully Tamei and requires an action to become Tahor, all the more so we slaughter for a three-emission Zav on day eight, for he immersed on day seven and has a mere remnant of Tum'ah!
Rejection: No - the Reisha discusseses before immersion;
One might have thought that we slaughter for him because he can Metaher himself, but we do not slaughter on day eight, because his Taharah depends on Kohanim [offering his birds], we are concerned lest they will neglect to do so - the Mishnah teaches that this is not so.
WHEN WE MAY SLAUGHTER FOR A NIDAH OR ZAVAH
(Mishnah): We slaughter for a Zavah [on her eighth day].
Version #1 (A recitor of Beraisos): We slaughter for a Zavah on her seventh day.
Objection (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): We cannot slaughter for a Zavah on her seventh day! Even according to the opinion that permits to slaughter and Zorek for a Tamei Sheretz only permits because he will be able to eat at night - but a Zavah cannot eat until the morrow, when she brings her Kaparah!
Correction: Rather, we slaughter for her on her eighth day.
Objection: This is obvious!
Answer: One might have thought that since she is Mechuseres Kaparah, we do not slaughter for her - the Mishnah teaches that this is not so, like Rav Shemayah [above].
Version #2 - Ravina - (A recitor of Beraisos): We slaughter for a Nidah on her seventh day.
Objection (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): We cannot! A Nidah cannot immerse until the night after her seventh day, she is a Tevul Yom and cannot eat until the night after that!
Correction: Rather, we slaughter for her on her eighth day.
Objection: This is obvious - we can slaughter for a Zavah on her eighth day, even though she is Mechuseres Kaparah, all the more so for a Nidah who is not!
Answer: It teaches that we slaughter for a Nidah on day eight, to teach that we may not on day seven:
(Beraisa): Anyone who needs to immerse may immerse during the day - the only exceptions are a Nidah and Yoledes, who immerse at night (this is their first opportunity).
(Beraisa) Suggestion: Perhaps a Nidah may immerse during the day!
Rejection: "Shiv'as Yomim Tihyeh v'Nidasah" - [this is extra, to teach that] she is Nidah for seven full days.
Yoledes is equated to Nidah ("Ki'Mei Nidas Devasah Titma").