12TH CYCLE DEDICATION
NEDARIM 2-5 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs. Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the eighth Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

(a)'Hareini Alayich Cherem' (cited later in the Mishnah in 'ha'Shutfin') is similar to she'Ani Ochal Lach', which, we just learned, implies a two- way Neder. In that case, why does the Tana conclude 'ha'Mudar Asur' (and not 'Sheneihem Asurim')?

(b)And by the same token, why does the Tana continue 'At Alai Cherem, ha'Noder Asur' (and not 'Shneihem Asurim')?

(c)In any event, we can infer from both of these cases that S'tama, the Neder would act both ways. What problem do we have with this?

(d)So how do we now amend Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina's original statement? What distinction does he draw between 'Mudar Ani Lach' and 'Mudrani Heimech' (or Mimcha)?

1)

(a)'Hareini Alayich Cherem' (cited later in the Mishnah in 'ha'Shutfin') is similar to she'Ani Ochal Lach', which, we just learned, implies a two- way Neder. In that case, the reason that the Tana concludes 'ha'Mudar Asur' (and not 'Sheneihem Asurim') is - because it speaks when the Noder said 've'At Alai Lo'.

(b)By the same token, the Tana continues 'At Alai Cherem, ha'Noder Asur' (and not 'Sheneihem Asurim') - because it speaks when the Noder said 'va'Ana Alach Lo'.

(c)In any event, we can infer from both of these cases that S'tama, the Neder would act both ways. In that case, why would the Tana need to continue 'Hareini Alayich v'At Alai Asur', seeing as either of the two statements would have the same effect.

(d)Consequently, we amend Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina's original statement to read - 'Mudar Ani Lach, Sheneihem Asurin (because 'Lach' implies both 'Nechasai Lecha' and 'Ani mi'she'Lach'); 'Mudrani Heimech (or Mimcha), Hu Asur, va'Chavero Mutar' (because 'Mimcha' implies 'Ani mi'Nechasecha' and no more).

2)

(a)What problem does this explanation present, regarding Shmuel's interpretation of our Mishnah 'Mudrani Mimcha, she'Ani To'em Lach'?

(b)So we retract from our original understanding of Shmuel (and in fact, even 'Mudrani Mimcha' is only a one-way Neder). Then what is the difference between 'Mudrani Mimcha she'Ani Ochal Lach' and 'Mudrani Mimcha' on its own? Why does our Mishnah present it as one case?

(c)What can we extrapolate from here regarding Shmuel's opinion on 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos'?

(d)We reject this on the basis of Shmuel's Lashon 'be'Chulan ad she'Yomar she'Ani Ochal Lach'. According to this explanation, what should Shmuel have said?

2)

(a)This explanation is difficult however, in view of Shmuel's interpretation of our Mishnah, which assumes that the Tana is speaking about a one-way Neder only because the Noder added 'she'Ani To'em Lach', but had he said 'Mudrani Mimcha' on its own, it would be a two-way Neder, clashing with what we just concluded according to Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina.

(b)So we retract from our original understanding of Shmuel (and in fact, even 'Mudrani Mimcha' is only a one-way Neder). And the difference between 'Mudrani Mimcha she'Ani Ochal Lach' and 'Mudrani Mimcha' on its own is - that in the former, the Noder is only Asur to eat from the Mudar, whereas in the latter, he is forbidden to derive any benefit from him.

(c)We can extrapolate from here - that, seeing as an Isur Hana'ah is not inherent in the words 'Mudrani Mimcha' any more than an Isur Achilah is, Shmuel must hold that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Havyan Yadayim'.

(d)We reject this however, on the basis of Shmuel's Lashon 'be'Chulan ad she'Yomar she'Ani Ochal Lach'. According to this explanation, what he should have said was - 've'Im Lo Amar she'Ani Ochal Lach ... Asur Afilu b'Hana'ah'.

3)

(a)So we start from the other end: What Shmuel means to say is - that it is only if the Noder said 'she'Ani Ochal Lach' that it is a Yad l'Neder. What would be the Din had he only said 'Mudrani Mimcha' without adding she'Ani Ochal Lach'?

(b)What are the two possible implications of 'Mudrani Mimcha'?

(c)How does this differ from our original interpretation of Shmuel?

(d)Why can we no longer ask on Shmuel from the Beraisa?

3)

(a)So we start from the other end: What Shmuel means to say is - that it is only if the Noder said 'she'Ani Ochal Lach' that it is a Yad l'Neder. Had he only said 'Mudrani Mimcha' without adding she'Ani Ochal Lach' - he would not be Asur at all, because, seeing as it is unclear what he is coming to forbid, it is a question of 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos', and Shmuel holds 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Lo Havyan Yadayim'.

(b)The two possible implications of 'Mudrani Mimcha' are - 1. An Isur Hana'ah; 2. An Isur to even speak with the Mudar.

(c)This differs from our original interpretation of Shmuel - inasmuch as we originally thought that, according to Shmuel, this is not a Yad at all (according to anybody), whereas we now concede that it is, only it is a Yad she'Eino Mochi'ach (which is subject to a Machlokes Tana'im, as we shall soon see).

(d)We can no longer ask on Shmuel from the Beraisa - because the Tana of the Beraisa may well hold 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Havyan Yadayim', whereas Shmuel holds like those Tana'im who holds ' ... Lo Havyan Yadayim', as we shall soon see.

4)

(a)Others explain Shmuel differently. According to them, Shmuel conforms with the Beraisa, too. What, in their opinion, is definitely implied by ...

1. ... 'Mudrani Mimcha'?

2. ... 'Mufreshani Mimcha'?

3. ... 'Meruchkani Mimcha'?

(b)Then what does not become forbidden until the Noder says 'she'Ani Ochal Lach'? In which connection does Shmuel hold 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Lo Havyan Yadayim'?

(c)Either way, like which Tana will Shmuel now hold?

4)

(a)Others explain Shmuel differently. According to them, Shmuel conforms with the Beraisa, too. In their opinion ...

1. ... 'Mudrani Mimcha' - implies an Isur to speak with the Mudar.

2. ... 'Mufreshani Mimcha' - implies an Isur to do business with him.

3. ... 'Meruchkani Mimcha' - implies an Isur to stand within his four Amos (and these are the cases to which the Beraisos are referring).

(b)What does not become forbidden until the Noder says 'she'Ani Ochal Lach' - is eating his food, in which regard these Leshonos are 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos' and Shmuel holds 'Lo Havyan Yadayim'.

(c)In any event, Shmuel will now hold like Rebbi Yehudah, in whose opinion 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Lo Havyan Yadayim'.

5b----------------------------------------5b

5)

(a)The source of the Machlokes regarding 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos' is the Mishnah in Gitin, where the Tana Kama rules that all the husband needs to write in a Get is 'Harei At Muteres l'Chol Adam'. What does Rebbi Yehudah say?

(b)What makes this a case of 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos'? What is unclear about the Tana Kama's version of the Get, according to Rebbi Yehudah?

(c)What causes Shmuel to establish our Mishnah as one case, to teach us 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim'? Which word in the Mishnah prompts him to learn the Mishnah this way?

(d)How might we otherwise explain 'Mudrani Mimcha, she'Ani Ochal' without the word 'Lach'?

5)

(a)The source of the Machlokes regarding 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos' is the Mishnah in Gitin, where the Tana Kama rules that all the husband needs to write in a Get is 'Harei At Muteres l'Chol Adam'. According to Rebbi Yehudah - he needs to add 've'Dein d'Yehavi Lichi Mina'i Sefer Tiruchin v'Igeres Shevukin'.

(b)What makes this a case of 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos' - is the absence of the word 'Mina'i', which conveys the impression that he is perhaps divorcing somebody else's wife (or the lack of any mention of a Shtar, implying that he is perhaps divorcing her verbally. This will be explained shortly).

(c)What causes Shmuel to establish our Mishnah as one case, says Rava (to teach us 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim') is - the insertion of the word 'she'Ochal 'Lach'.

(d)We might otherwise explain 'Mudrani Mimcha, she'Ani Ochal' - to mean that the Noder will not talk to the Mudar should he eat today or until another fixed time.

6)

(a)What is the basis of the previous Kashya? What is wrong with saying that Shmuel explains the Mishnah that way because he holds like Rebbi Yehudah?

(b)Is Shmuel now simply explaining the Mishnah this way (contrary to his own personal opinion), or does he accept our Mishnah as Halachah?

(c)How do we reconcile Shmuel's opinion here with his own opinion in Gitin, where he requires space to be left on a Get to write 'Harei At Muteres l'Chol Adam' apparently precluding 've'Dein d'Yehavi Lechi Mina'i'? Why might Gerushin be different?

(d)How else might we answer this Kashya?

6)

(a)The basis of the previous Kashya is - that it is unlikely for Shmuel to explain the Mishnah that way because he holds like Rebbi Yehudah, who is after all, a minority opinion. That is why we look for a source in the Mishnah itself that would prompt Shmuel to explain it like that.

(b)Now that Shmuel has found a source in the Mishnah itself which establishes the author as Rebbi Yehudah - he accepts the opinion of a Stam Mishnah as Halachah, even against the majority opinion of the Chachamim.

(c)We reconcile Shmuel's opinion here with his own opinion in Gitin, where he requires space to be left on a Get to write 'Harei At Muteres l'Chol Adam' but not 've'Dein d'Yehavi Lichi Mina'i' - because, even though he rules like Rebbi Yehudah in other regards, he does not rule like him regarding Gerushin. Gerushin is different, he maintains, because nobody would divorce somebody else's wife. Consequently, even though he did not write 'Mina'i' in the Get, it is not considered 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos'.

(d)We might also answer this Kashya by explaining that Gerushin is no different than any other area of Halachah, and that Shmuel does require 've'Dein ... ' as is implied in our Sugya (because even though it is obvious that he is divorcing his wife, it is not clear from the Lashon itself, and it therefore remains a case of 'Yadayim she'Einan Mochichos'). Only he mentions it there by Kidushin, taking it for granted that it needs to be inserted by Gerushin too!

7)

(a)Abaye holds 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Havyan Yadayim'. What does Rava say?

(b)What does Rebbi Tarfon say about someone who says that, if his friend is a Nazir, he undertakes to be a Nazir, too?

(c)How does Rava, quoting Rebbi Idi, learn from "Nazir Lehazir' that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim'?

(d)What is the difference between 'Hafla'ah' by Nezirus and Hafla'ah by Yados of Nezirus?

(e)How do we know that the Hafla'ah by Yados must have a different meaning than the Hafla'ah of the Nezirus itself?

7)

(a)Abaye holds 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Havyan Yadayim'. Rava holds - 'Lo Havyan Yadayim' (like Shmuel).

(b)Rebbi Tarfon says - that if someone declares that, if his friend is a Nazir, he undertakes to be a Nazir, too - is not a Nazir (even if his friend turns out to be a Nazir), because (based on the Pasuk in Naso "Ish Ki Yafli"), Nezirus requires clarity (it must be clear without any Safek at the time when it is announced that he is a Nazir).

(c)Rava, quoting Rebbi Idi, learns from "Nazir Lahazir' that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim' - because the Hekesh of Yados Nezirus to Nezirus teaches us that, Yados, like Nezirus, require clarity.

(d)'Hafla'ah' by Nezirus means - that the Nezirus must be clearly Chal at the time when the Nazir makes the pronouncement (even though there is no Safek as to what he meant), whereas Hafla'ah by Yados of Nezirus means - that his intention must be un-ambiguous.

(e)The 'Hafla'ah' by the Yad cannot possible refer to the same as that of the Nezirus - because whatever is not valid in the case of Nezirus, is obviously not valid in the case of Yados either, seeing as the one is learned from the other.

8)

(a)All this follows the opinion of Rebbi Tarfon. What do the Rabanan say?

(b)According to them, from where does Rava learn that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim'?

(c)According to the Rabanan of Rebbi Yehudah, Rava explains that a Get is different, because a person would not divorce someone else's wife. Does that transfer Get into a case of Yadayim Mochichos

8)

(a)All this follows the opinion of Rebbi Tarfon. According to the Rabanan, the Neder itself does not need to be clear when is pronounced.

(b)According to them - Rava learns that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim' directly from "Ish ki Yafli", which pertains to Yados and not to the actual Nezirus.

(c)According to the Rabanan of Rebbi Yehudah, Rava explains that a Get is different, because a person would not divorce someone else's wife. According to the Rashba - this transfers Get into a case of Yadayim Mochichos. The Ran though, holds that seeing as the Lashon is unclear, it remains a case of Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, only his clear intentions override the fact that it is.

9)

(a)Initially, it seems that Abaye follows the opinion of the Rabanan in Gitin (who hold 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Havyan Yadayim'), whereas Rava holds like Rebbi Yehudah ('Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim'). How do we establish ...

1. ... Abaye even like Rebbi Yehudah? Why might Rebbi Yehudah confine his ruling to Gitin?

2. ... Rava even like the Rabanan? Why might the Rabanan confine their opinion to Gitin?

9)

(a)Initially, it seems that Abaye follows the opinion of the Rabanan in Gitin (regarding Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos), whereas Rava holds like Rebbi Yehudah. However, we establish ...

1. ... Abaye even like Rebbi Yehudah - who might confine his opinion to Gitin, because there, the Torah requires 'Kerisus' (that the couple sever their relations completely), but in other matters perhaps even Rebbi Yehudah will agree that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Havyan Yadayim'.

2. ... Rava even like the Rabanan - who might confine their opinion to Gitin, because there, it is uncommon for a person to divorce someone else's wife (as we explained above). Elsewhere, they might well agree with Shmuel (that 'Lo Havyan Yadayim').

10)

(a)How do we reconcile our Sugya's assumption that Rebbi Yehudah and the Rabanan argue over whether one needs to write the word 'Mina'i' or not (because the Rabanan apply the Sevara that a person does not divorce someone else's wife); whereas the Sugya in Gitin assumes that they argue over whether or not, one needs to write the whole Nusach 've'Dein d'Yehavi Lichi Mina'i ... ' (because otherwise it conveys the impression that he is divorcing his wife with mere words)?

(b)There are some who rule that one needs to write 've'Dein', but not 'Mina'i. Why is that?

(c)What do we take on?

10)

(a)Our Sugya assumes that Rebbi Yehudah and the Rabanan argue over whether one needs to write the word 'Mina'i' or not (because the Rabanan apply the Sevara that a person does not divorce soomeone else's wife) does not in fact, argue with the Sugya in Gitin assumes that they argue over whether or not, one needs to write the whole Nusach 've'Dein d'Yehavi Lichi Mina'i ... ' (because otherwise it conveys the impression that he is divorcing his wife with mere words) - because the Tana'im argue over both issues.

(b)There are some who rule that one needs to write 've'Dein' in a Get, but not 'Mina'i' - because they rule like Rava who holds 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos Lo Havyan Yadayim' (like Rebbi Yehudah). Nevertheless, 'Mina'i' is not necessary, because of Rava's Sevara that a person would not divorce someone else's wife (which, as we explained, overrides Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos).

(c)We rule that one needs to write both 've'Dein' and 'Mina'i' - like Rava, who holds like Rebbi Yehudah, who holds in turn that 'Yadayim she'Ein Mochichos, Lo Havyan Yadayim'.

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