Shalom,
What is the exact meaning of "SHOGEG BEHATAT"?
I understand that it means that the man did not know that if he does the Avera BEShogeg, he will have to bring a Korban.
But this definition is problematic because it is recursive: in order to define the concept of Shogeg, you use the concept of Shogeg!
Please answer as soon as possible.
Thanks,
Jonathan
Jonathan, I don't think that the definition here is recursive. Even according to Munbaz, if someone forgets that the act is prohibited and sins, the sin is also called "Shogeg."
If so, the definition of the second type of Shogeg, i.e. Shogeg b'Chatat, is as follows: One who knows that the act is prohibited, but does not know that if he forgets that it is prohibited and transgresses it he will have to bring a Chatas. If such a person knowingly transgresses the prohibition, he does not have to bring a Chatas according to Munbaz.
I hope that makes the matter clearer. Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Thanks for answering me so quickly,
1. You said that, according to Munbaz, "One who knows that the act is prohibited, but does not know that if he forgets that it is prohibited and transgresses it he will have to bring a Chatas".
The crucial question is: what `if he forgets` refers to?
One possibility is to say: if he forgets that it is prohibited. But this possibility is not acceptable because if he forgets that it is prohibited, he is not liable Chatat, according to Munbaz.
Therefore, we must say: "One who knows that the act is prohibited, but does not know that if he forgets `that in the case he forgets he will have to bring a Chatat` and transgresses it he will have to bring a Chatas"
Now, the crucial question is: what the 2nd `if he forgets` refers to?
And so on... => Here we get the recursive definition.
One possibility is to say: if he forgets that it is prohibited. But this possibility is not acceptable because if he forgets that it is prohibited, he is not liable Chatat, according to Munbaz.
Therefore, we must say: "One who knows that the act is prohibited, but does not know that if he forgets `that in the case he forgets he will have to bring a Chatat` and transgresses it he will have to bring a Chatas"
Please try to answer me again as soon as possible....
2. By the way, is there a phone number in Israel, where we can ask our
questions in the case that it is hard to explain ourselves by e-mail?
Thanks,
Jonathan.
1. Jonathan, you write that "if he forgets that it is prohibited, he is not liable Chatat, according to Munbaz." This seems to serve as the basis for why you see recursive reasoning here.
However, the Rishonim do not seem to accept this approach. Rashi DH Kol she'Ken she'Hosafta, and Tosfos DH Kol she'Ken (and the other Rishonim) write that Munbaz is also Mechayev Chatas if a person is a total Shogeg; i.e. he is not a Tinok she'Nishbah, but he has totally forgotten that the act is prohibited. If so, your question is answered.
We may, however, re-write your question as follows: Tosfos (ibid., as well as the other Rishonim) asks how Munbaz knew that if a person has totally forgotten that the act is prohibited he is still Chayav a Chatas. Why doesn't he answer that it is obvious that one is Chayav for such a Shogeg, since otherwise we will run into your question of recursive reasoning!
Apparently the answer is that Tosfos considered it possible that indeed, Munbaz is not Mechayev a Korban for a Shogeg, but only for a Mezid! That is, Munbaz holds one is Chayav a Korban for Mezid, if he does not know that a Korban is associated with this sin. But if a person knows that someone who is not aware that a Korban is associated with this sin must bring a Korban if he sins, then because of this knowledge, that person will not bring a Korban. (And Tosfos answers that the Hekesh cannot make "Shogeg" into "Mezid".)
I hope this makes things clearer.
2. As for reaching us by phone, we do not have set hours to reach the Talmidei Chachamim of the Kollel by phone, although you can reach our office (for donations or requests for study material or free Dafyomi calendars etc.) from 10-6, M-Th.
However, if you are looking for answers specifically to Dafyomi questions in Israel, there is an excellent service called "Meishivey Hadaf" here which will connect you with a Talmid Chacham to answer your questions, any time of day.
Meishivey Hadaf can be reached directly by dialing 2114 from any phone, or through Kol Hadaf by calling Kol Hadaf, 02 6400000, and picking a Dafyomi shiur (by pressing 1), then pressing 5 .
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf