More Discussions for this daf
1. Tragedies of Sandal ha'Mesumar 2. Sandal ha'Mesumar 3. The Gezeirah of Sandal ha'Mesumar
4. sandal hamesumar 5. Sandal Ha'Mesumar 6. רש"י ד"ה טהורה
7. נשרו רוב ממסמרותיו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 60

Boris Kleiner asked:

1. In Shabbat 60b (line 15 from the bottom) there is a Baraita "nashru rov masmerotav v'nishtayru 4 o 5 mutar v'rebi matir ad 7", upon which the Gemara says: "ha gufa kashya etc." The Gemara apparently reads the "vav" ("and") as if its meaning were "or" ("if most of its nails fell out, OR IF there are only 4 or 5 left, it is permitted") Do I understand the reasoning of Gemara properly?

2. Why does Gemara want to see here a difficulty? Doesn't the Baraita simply mean: "if most of its nails fell out SO THAT there are only 4 or 5 left, it is permitted", with no inner contradiction?

3. In the questions to this Daf, prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler, in your archives, the question 8 (a) reads as follows: "A Sandal ha'Mesumar becomes permitted, according to the Beraisa, if a certain number of nails fell out: four or five, or seven." I don't understand how R. Chrysler came to this conclusion. Is it a mistake?

4. Now a question to the position of R. Chiya (at the bottom of the same blat), who would have permitted 22/24 nails if he weren't concerned about his reputation. If I understand the topic correctly, the small amount of nails (up to 7, or 5 according to R. Yochanan) would be considered ornamental and permitted; if there are more nails they are considered as strengthening, and such a sandal is forbidden on Shabbat and Yom Tov, but when the number of nails gets so big that a sandal would be completely covered by them, it is again permitted since it doesn't resemble the maase shehaya. Now, as for R. Chiya - does he think that UP TO 22/24 nails are still ornamental (and thus even 8-22/24 nails are permitted, but from 23/25 on forbidden), or he holds that FROM 22/24 nails on it is already considered as completely covered by nails and therefore permitted (and thus 8-21/23 nails are forbidden)?

5. RASHI, DH "ad daata Rabbi Chiya" (at the very bottom): should the word "Suria" be replaced by "Sura"?

The Kollel replies:

1. Yes, your understanding of the Gemara is correct.

2. It cannot be that the Beraisa makes sense as it is, because we have already seen that even if it was made like that l'Chatchilah, it is permitted to wear it if there is only five nails in it. If so, why does the Beraisa permit it only if most of the nails fail out and it has changed from its original construction, and it has only five nails left (see Rashi)? It must be that if most of the nails fell out, it is permitted to wear it even if more than five nails are left in it. And when the Beraisa says that four or five nails are left, it is teaching an entirely different Halachah, as the Gemara explains, and has nothing to do with a case where the nails fell out (for even if only a few nails fell out (less than half), it is still permitted if there are only five nails left).

3. You are correct. The text in the Review as it appears is an error, and it should instead read, "... if nails fell out and a certain number of nails remain : four or five, or seven."

4. From 8 until 22/24 is permitted, more than this is forbidden. (This is implied by his wording, "I would have permitted more ." Indeed, the text of the Gemara according to the DIKDUKEI SOFRIM should read " until 22.")

5. Yes.

Mordecai Kornfeld