Shalom Rabbi Kornfeld,
Hope all is well by you. In the Mishnah on 7A, the Tanna Kamma says that the Kohen tares the Sotah's garment and messes up her hair. Rabbi Yehudah says if she was attractive the Kohen would skip those steps. The Gemara on 8A asks a contradiction: in Sanhedrin the Rabbanan worry about impure thoughts and rule that a woman must be clothed when she is stoned and here the Rabbanan don't worry about impure thoughts and they hold even if she is shapely, a Sotah's garment is still torn.
My Questions-
1) Why does the Gemara assume that the Tanna Kamma of Sotah 7A is the Rabbanan?
2)The Beraita that our Gemara quotes as well as the Mishnah in Sanhedrin 45A puts Ribbi Yehuda first then says "Vachamim Omrim".
Is there a general rule in reference to the Shitah of the Rabbanan going last or first etc. ?
3) in answering the contradiction in Ribbi Yehuda the Gemara says that the Sotah may not die and the kohanim after seeing her chest may start up with her at a later date as opposed to the woman who'll be stoned she can be uncovered because she'll surely die. Why isn't Ribbi Yehudah concerned about impure thoughts in and of itself? Why does he only make a change in the dress if it could lead to an action sin? Doesn't it say "Hirhuray Aveirah Kashin Meaveirah"?
Thank you rabbi.
Aaron
1) When there is a dispute between an individual Tana and a Tana whose name is not mentioned, the Gemara usually assumes that this means that all the other Tana'im agree with the Tana whose name is not mentioned. Therefore, the anonymous Tana is usually referred to as Rabanan, because this is the majority opinion which disagrees with the individual opinion.
In our case, Rebbi Yehudah is mentioned on 7a, so the Tana Kama who disagrees with him is called Rabanan because we assume this is the majority opinion.
Then, on 8a, we have a Beraisa that mentions Rebbi Yehudah, so we assume that everyone else disagrees with Rebbi Yehudah. Therefore, that opinion is called Rabanan, i.e. the majority opinion.
2)
a) I do not know if there is a general rule about whether the majority opinion is mentioned first, or the minority opinion. However, in Sotah 45a there is a Beraisa (cited on the first wide line of the Gemara) in which Rebbi Yehudah's opinion is mentioned before the Chachamim. However, there is a Mishnah in Berachos 26a where the anonymous opinion is mentioned before Rebbi Yehudah. This might indicate that the rule is that in the Mishnah, the Chachamim are mentioned before Rebbi Yehudah, while in a Beraisa, Rebbi Yehuda is mentioned before the Chachamim. However, in the Mishnah in Shekalim 6:5, Rebbi Yehudah is mentioned before Chachamim. So it seems that there is no rule about this.
b) After looking around a little on the topic of when is one Tana mentioned before another, I found the following:
The first Mishnah in Nidah (which the Dafyomi cycle will be learning quite soon, bs'd) mentions Shamai before Hillel. The Ritva there writes that Hillel always spoke before Shamai, but because Hillel was so humble he used to put Shamai's words before his own. The Ritva also cites Eruvin 13b where the Gemara says that the students of Beis Hillel also put the words of Beis Shamai before their own words, because of their humility. The Ritva adds that the Tana of the Mishnah also put Shamai's words first in the same way that Hillel himself put Shamai's words first. Some Mefarshim explain that the reason why the Mishnah also put Shamai first is that the Mishnah was written by Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi, who was descended from Hillel, so he followed the humility of his ancestor and mentioned the opposing opinion first.
c) The Mishnah in Chagigah 16a also mentions Shamai before Hillel. Tosfos there (DH Shenayim) implies that this requires explanation, because Hillel was the Nasi. It appears from Tosfos that the reason why we would expect, generally speaking, that Hillel would be mentioned first is because Hillel was the Nasi (this is also the implication of the Tosfos Yom Tov, Chagigah 2:2, DH u'Shenayim). This is also why the Ritva, cited above, writes that Hillel always spoke before Shamai, since it is the way of the Nasi to have the first say in any discussions (even though he might later decide to write his opponents' words first, as Hillel did).
d) We also learn from the Ritva that if not for the fact that Hillel was so humble, the normal way one would expect events to unfold would be that the Nasi would speak first, and since he spoke first, his words would also be written down first when it came to recording them. It seems from this that the order in which opinions are written down in the Mishnah is the same order in which they were said in the original discussions in the Beis Midrash of the Tana'im.
e) In addition, the Chochmas Mano'ach in Pesachim (116a, DH mi'Techilah AA'Z) writes that Abaye is always mentioned in the Gemara before Rava because Abaye was the Rosh Yeshivah and Nasi before Rava was. Again, we learn from this that the Nasi is generally mentioned first.
f) However, in the case of Rebbi Yehudah, he was not the Nasi (Rebbi Yehudah, mentioned in the Mishnah in Sotah 7a, lived before Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi). Therefore, in the Mishnah in Sotah 7a the Chachamim are mentioned first because they spoke first in the discussion, while in the Beraisa on 8a Rebbi Yehudah is mentioned first because he spoke first in the discussion.
3)
a) I would like to suggest an answer to this question based on Tosfos to Sanhedrin 20a, DH Nashim, who writes that in "She'as Tza'ar," a time of distress (for example, a funeral), we need not be concerned that people will be disturbed by impure thoughts.
b) It is true that the Rashash in Sanhedrin writes that Tosfos seems somewhat inconsistent with the Gemara in Sukah 52a which says that even at the time of a Hesped the Yetzer ha'Ra is still active and so men and women must sit separately. It may be that we can answer the question of the Rashash by saying that at a funeral, the men and women do not actually mix, but merely the men can see the women, while the Gemara in Sukah discusses what would happen if they actually sit together.
c) At any rate, the Gemara in Sotah 8a refers to an extreme example of "She'as Tza'ar," where the woman is being put to death. At such a time, we are not worried that anyone will have impure thoughts.
Kesivah v'Chasimah Tovah,
Dovid Bloom