More Discussions for this daf
1. Pesach on Monday 2. Argument between Rebbi Simon and Rebbi Yehudah 3. Teaching a trade is a Mitzvah
4. Maybe He Will Slaughter a Little Bird 5. Making a Wound on Shabbos 6. Dam Mifkad Pakid
7. Seems like a redundancy 8. הקדמת נישואין לאבל מחמת אונס 9. סיבת אין בעילה במוצ"ש
10. מקלקל אצל הפתח
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KESUVOS 5

Avrumi Hersh asks:

5b bottom

The gemoro says in the ika deomri,

Do you need the dam then it's ossur.

Or do you just want the hanooh then it's muttar.

Then he gemoro says, im timtzi lomar you just want the hanooh, is it muttar or ossur, do you hold like ren shimon by dovor sheeyno miskaven, or like reb yehuda.

Obviously we hold like reb shimon, otherwise what was the tzad that it would be muttar if it was hanoas atzmo? The gemoro seems to have an unnecessary im timtzi lomar, in this ika deomri?

Avrumi Hersh, London england

The Kollel replies:

This is a perceptive question. I see, though, that you only asked in the Ika d'Amri. So it sounds like you did not find difficulty with the Gemara before the Ika d'Amri.

But if I understand your question correctly, you in fact could have asked earlier as well, for the original question posed was: Is the blood independent or connected? The Gemara asked a number of follow-up questions, including:

1) Even if the blood is independent, does the man just intend to take out the blood, in which case the Be'ilah is Mutar, or does he intend to create an opening, in which case it is Asur?

2) And even if he intends merely to take out the blood, and the formation of the opening constitutes an unintended consequence, still, do we follow Rebbi Shimon that an unintended consequence is Mutar, or Rebbi Yehudah that an unintended consequence is Asur?

According to your line of reasoning, here too, why did the Gemara in stage 2 ask if we follow Rebbi Yehudah? Isn't it obvious from the fact that the Gemara in stage 1 says that if he intends for the blood it is Mutar, that we are following Rebbi Yehudah?

Evdently, the Pshat is that, indeed, originally the Gemara assumes like one side, but later it reconsiders. That is, what was concluded previously really hinged on a tacit assumption, namely, Rebbi Shimon's view regarding Davar she'Eino Miskaven. In other words, not every "Im Timtzi Lomar" is considering a new consideration that is built on top of all the accepted assumptions of the previous steps, but rather, at times, such as in this Sugya, an "Im Timtzi Lomar" is in fact reconsidering a prior assumption and clarifying what would result from adopting the contrary view.

I hope this helps!

Best wishes,

Yishai Rasowsky