More Discussions for this daf
1. Kidushin of a Giyores Ketanah 2. Macha'ah Bagrus 3. Gerim
4. Ger Katan 5. Gerus a Zechus or a Chov? 6. Macha'ah Bagrus
7. Besulim 8. רש״י ד״ה מן הנישואין 9. רש"י על דעת בית דין
10. הגדילו יכולים למחות 11. יהבי לה קנס / כתובה ואזלה וכלה בגיותה 12. מתני' הגדול שבא על הקטנה
13. ביאת קטן
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KESUVOS 11

Ben Greene asks:

It seems from the Sugya of Ger Katan, that the vehicle for Gerus is the fact that it's a Zechus. For Ger Katan it's easy to say it's Zachin she'Lo b'Fanav because he has no Da'as, and even for an adult, being that he's a Goy, and as Tosfos in Sanhedrin 68b points out, it would still be difficult to say there's Shelichus because of Zechiya because a Goy can't appoint a Shaliach...but with all this being said, what I'm really driving at is, within the concept of Zachin she'Lo b'Fanav, if one man's Zechus is another man's Chov would we say that it's really Zechus Gamur and therefore there would be a Shaliach? Because even though for the Goy, it's a Zechus to be a Ger, but for a yid as Tosfos in Kidushin 70b points out Kashin Gerim l'Yisrael k'Sapachas there are 7 reasons why a Ger is a Chov for a Jew...?

Now I asked this question to one of my rabbeim and his answer was that of which I assumed one might say, that the Zechus for a Ger and the Chov for a Jew are in different "Parshios", that they're just different in nature I guess. And while I agree, I don't understand why that's a good answer. A Chov is a Chov so how can we have Gerim, assuming it's Talui on the Zechus?

Ben Greene, Oak Park

The Kollel replies:

The concept of a Giyur being a Chov is raised by some Poskim (see Mishneh Halachos 5:245) regarding the Gerus of a woman married to a Jew. If such a woman raises her children as Jews but doesn't perform the Mitzvos properly, her children will have a much greater punishment than if they were Nochrim, so it is better not to perform such a Gerus.

However, this logic doesn't apply to a regular Ger Tzedek or Ger Katan who is not converting due to marriage. According to Rashi and Tosfos' first Peshat in Kidushin, it would not apply, as they explain that "Kashim Gerim l'Yisrael" means that they are not fluent in the Mitzvos and they mislead other members of Yisrael. A Ger Tzedek, however, will learn the Mitzvos like all other Jews and will not be like those who convert after marrying a Jew who may mislead their children and others.

According to the other explanations of Tosfos, we could say that in fact there is a Zechus Gamur to the Ger and the fact that it could be a Chov to others is known to everyone and accepted, so it is as if we are Chavin b'Fanav regarding everyone else. This is because Beis Din is considered the representative of the Jewish nation and it is as if all of us are standing there when the Ger enters the Mikvah. So, in a sense, there is Shelichus for the Nochri since it is a Zechus Gamur for him and Shelichus from our point of view since we view Beis Din as our Shelichim and therefore it is as if we are there.

Yoel Domb