More Discussions for this daf
1. Breaking Bread, Amen Chatufah 2. Terumah mi'd'Rabanan 3. D'Oraisa Docheh d'Rabanan
4. Counting a Baby for Zimun 5. How could a Rav be an Am ha'Aretz? 6. Mitzvah ha'Ba'ah b'Aveirah
7. Would Rav and Shmuel really want dessert 8. Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi's status? 9. Ma'aser Sheni, Terumah ...
10. Sifra d'Vei Rav 11. Counting a Katan in a Minyan 12. D'Oraysa Docheh D'Rabanan
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 47

Michoel asks:

This past Shabbos I was in a shul where they were counting a child under bar mitzvah for a minyan (even though it is in a Charedi neighborhood but the shul itself is not popular). They refused to find a tenth adult and they were doing krias hatorah. For the first five aliyas, they called up different people, including the rav, but after that I had a feeling that I would be the next aliyah, so I went and hid in the bathroom to avoid a bracha l'vatala (as their minyan is not valid). Did I do the right thing? If they would have called me up, should I simply refuse to go up?

Michoel, Brooklyn, US

The Kollel replies:

It is not as simple as you say that a Katan cannot join a Minyan. There are opinions that at a time of "stress" a Katan can join a Minyan (Rema, Orach Chayim 55:4). Your contention that it is a Charedi neighborhood does not mean it will necessarily be easier to find a tenth person and, if they search, some of the Minyan might give up and leave. So there is a basis for making a Minyan based on the Magen Avraham's leniency (Orach Chayim 55:4, Mishnah Berurah 24).

If you say that the Rav relied on this leniency he must have had this basis in mind. Moreover, there are Poskim (Levushei Mordechai 1:20, Igros Moshe 2:18) who maintain that for Keri'as ha'Torah we may rely more on this leniency, since for Tefilah a Katan cannot join a Minyan but Halachically he can be part of the seven Aliyos to the Torah. Some Poskim are more stringent regarding Keri'as ha'Torah (Me'iri, Kiryat Sefer 5:1; Shevet ha'Levi 1:115).

If they called you up, I think due to Darkei Shalom you shouldn't refuse to rely on their leniency, since Ashkenazim have some basis for this. However, Sefardim may not be lenient at all, and Rav Ovadyah Yosef indeed ruled that a person should go out rather than join such a Minyan (Yabi'a Omer 4:9).

Yoel Domb

Michoel asked:

»This past Shabbos I was in a shul where they were counting a child under bar mitzvah for a minyan (even though it is in a Haredi neighborhood but the shul itself is not popular). They refused to find a tenth adult and they were doing krias hatorah. For the first five aliyas, they called up different people, including the rav, but after that I had a feeling that I would be the next aliyah, so I went and hid in the bathroom to avoid a bracha l'vatala (as their minyan is not valid). Did I do the right thing? If they would have called me up, should I simply refuse to go up?«

The Kollel replied:

»It is not as simple as you say that a Katan cannot join a Minyan. There are opinions that at a time of "stress" a Katan can join a Minyan (Rema, Orach Chayim 55:4). Your contention that it is a Charedi neighborhood does not mean it will necessarily be easier to find a tenth person and, if they search, some of the Minyan might give up and leave. So there is a basis for making a Minyan based on the Magen Avraham's leniency (Orach Chayim 55:4, Mishnah Berurah 24).

If you say that the Rav relied on this leniency he must have had this basis in mind. Moreover, there are Poskim (Levushei Mordechai 1:20, Igros Moshe 2:18) who maintain that for Keri'as ha'Torah we may rely more on this leniency, since for Tefilah a Katan cannot join a Minyan but Halachically he can be part of the seven Aliyos to the Torah. Some Poskim are more stringent regarding Keri'as ha'Torah (Me'iri, Kiryat Sefer 5:1; Shevet ha'Levi 1:115).

If they called you up, I think due to Darkei Shalom you shouldn't refuse to rely on their leniency, since Ashkenazim have some basis for this. However, Sefardim may not be lenient at all, and Rav Ovadyah Yosef indeed ruled that a person should go out rather than join such a Minyan (Yabi'a Omer 4:9).«

Michoel asks:

"Darkei Shalom" permits making a Safek Berachah l'Vatalah? (As you mentioned that according to the Shevet Halevi they were not allowed to do krias hatorah, and according to the Mishna Berura in the name of numerous achronim even b'shas hadchak this is not a valid minyan, and so ruled Rav Gedalia Schwartz and Rav Shlomo Miller shlita.)

The Kollel replies:

If, for every Safek Berachah l'Vatalah, we relied on the most stringent Poskim, we practically would make no Berachos or eat, since, for example, we make one Berachah every day which is a Safek l'Vatalah (on Tefilin Shel Rosh) and then add "Baruch Shem...," because Ashkenazim still rule that it should be said. We rely on minority opinions in other cases even when in doubt about the right Berachah.

I am not Paskening any Halachic question, but just stating my view that Darkei Shalom supersedes your Sfeikos about the Minyan. Just to put things in perspective, even according to the Rambam who rules that Berachah l'Vatalah is d'Oraisa, one could still say "Baruch Shem" afterwards and this would remove the Isur (Hilchos Shevu'os 12:11). Tosfos (Rosh Hashanah 33a) maintains that its mid'Rabanan. In this case it would be a Safek d'Rabanan (since many uphold this Minyan) when one can certainly be lenient due to Darkei Shalom, with the Minyan possibly disbanding due to your wish to be Machmir. If you are really worried, do as the Rambam says and add "Baruch Shem..." after your Berachos in a way that isn't noticed.

Yoel Domb

Michoel asks:

Al mitzvas tefillin is not c"v a safek bracha l'vatala. Rather, we (those who follow the Rama) pasken that it should be said, and out of deference to the minority opinion we add Baruch Shem. If it would be truly a safek bracha l'vatala, we would not say it because safek brachos l'hakel.

In this case, the opinion that upholds the minyan as valid is a minority opinion, that is rejected entirely (even b'shas hadchak) by many achronim (as concludes the Mishna Berura, and as was paskened to me by Rav Shlomo Miller shlita). Even according to Rav Moshe, it is OK in a matzav that is b'shas hadchak gomur (which in this situation is not necessarily the case as they were able to persuade a tenth person to come, but refused to do so). Nowhere does the Rambam say that one should make two safek brachas l'vatala and then say Baruch Shem. In no other case would we tell a person to go and make safek brachos l'vatala and then say Baruch Shem.

Also, please address the following: If there is a Sephardic person there who is ignorant of his obligation to leave, must I (an Ashkenazi) leave to prevent him from having an aliyah and making brachos l'vatala? Should I go over to him and tell him that he is obligated to leave?

The Kollel replies:

I wasn't saying that the Berachah of "Al Mitzvas Tefilin" is a Safek, but I don't know how you concluded that in our case it is a minority opinion. Did you count the Poskim on this point? It seems you believe that the Mishnah Berurah is Machmir, but he cites both opinions and does not decide between them. If your Rav is Machmir, then you certainly may follow him, but we cannot make it into a majority opinion.

I didn't say that the Rambam l'Chatchilah allows Berachos in a Safek; the rule of Safek Berachos is clear. Rather, I said even according to his more stringent approach to Berachos (Nishmas Adam holds that it is d'Rabanan even according to the Rambam), you could rely on those Poskim who are lenient since this is not a Safek Berachah l'Vatalah according to them. There is no Hachra'ah in the Poskim like the more stringent view, and in the b'Di'eved situation of being called up I believe you could rely on them.

As for She'as ha'Dechak, it's hard to know what the situation was when you're not there. I agree that if there were Sefardim you should tell them Rav Ovadyah's Psak and they should leave the Minyan with you.

Yoel Domb