More Discussions for this daf
1. tense/order 2. Toil-Free in Egypt 3. TOSFOS DH ELA d'Ka'i
4. Eisanim 5. The Twelfth Principle of the Rambam 6. Mazalos
7. Mazalos 8. Did Man really want to be Created? 9. Creation in Nisan or Tishrei
10. Parents vs. Mountains 11. Shaving on Rosh Hashanah 12. Machlokes R"I and R"E
13. Month the world was created in 14. Point by Point Outlines and Review questions - Correction 15. In What Month Was the World Created?
16. אלא דקאי בחג ואמר ליה 17. מחלוקת ר"י ור"א בענין בריאת העולם
DAF DISCUSSIONS - ROSH HASHANAH 11

martin fogel asked:

1) What is the halacha relative to the argument on whether the world was created in Nissan or Tishrei? I ask mainly in regard to Bircas haChama which I think will be next year in 5768.

2) Also, won't next year be a shmita year (thought this will depend on another argument on whether the 50th year counts in the next cycle or not.)

Thanks,

martin fogel, carlsbad, ca

The Kollel replies:

1) See our notes below. (I think the next Birkas ha'Chamah is 5769, in two years.

2) Yes, 5768 is a Shemitah year.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

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B'NISAN NIVRA HA'OLAM/B'TISHREI NIVRA HA'OLAM

(a) There is an argument in Rosh Hashanah (11a) between Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua regarding when the world was created. Rebbi Eliezer says it was created in Tishrei, and Rebbi Yehoshua says it was created in Nisan.

(b) Tosfos (Rosh Hashanah 8a DH l'Tekufos) and the Ran (Rosh Hashanah 3a of the Rif) state that although Rebbi Yehoshua and Rebbi Eliezer seem to be discussing when the "world" was created, they are actually referring to when man (the purpose of the world) was created. Rebbi Eliezer therefore holds that the world itself was created on the twenty-fifth of Elul, while Rebbi Yehoshua holds it was created on the twenty-fifth of Adar.

(c) Although this seems to be an argument which is Agaddic in nature, there are some practical Halachic differences between these two opinions.

1. The calculations of the lunar calendar that we use are based on when the sun and moon started their cycles at the creation of the world. Thus, there should be a two day difference in the calculation of the Molad between Rebbi Yehoshua and Rebbi Eliezer. (The Molad shifts by 2 days of the week, 4 hours, and 438 Chalakim over the course of six months. Thus, if the moon was created six months earlier, the Molad would be more than two days earlier - see Point by Point Summary of Tosfos for Rosh Hashanah 8a, DH l'Tekufos.) Halachically, we calculate the Molad from Tishrei, following R. Eliezer's opinion (see Tosfos ibid. and Rosh Hashanah 12a).

2. We say a special Berachah every 28 years, when the sun returns to the same location in which it was placed upon its creation (relative to the revolution and rotational cycles of the Earth). According to R. Yehoshua, this Berachah is recited on Wednesday the fourth of Nisan, while according to R. Eliezer it is recited in Tishrei. Halachically, we follow the ruling of R. Yehoshua with regard to this Berachah (Rosh Hashanah 12a and OC 229:2; note, however, the comments of Rashi and Tosfos in Rosh Hashanah ibid.). The Birkas ha'Chamah was last recited on Wednesday, the fourth of Nissan 5741.

(d) According to Rebbi Eliezer, it is clear why Rosh Hashanah, the day of judgement, is on the first of Tishrei. Just as man was created and judged then, Hash-m judges man every year on that day. However, according to Rebbi Yehoshua, why is Rosh Hashanah on the first of Tishrei? The Ran (ibid.) explains that Hash-m wants Bnei Yisrael to be found as innocent as possible on Rosh Hashanah, and therefore He set the day of judgement to be during a time of repentance and forgiveness, prior to Yom Kipur.

Martin Fogel asked:

Thanks for the quick reply.

(a) If Rabbi Yehoshua holds that the world was created on 25 Adar, I would think that birchas haChama should be on 28 Adar, not 4 Nissan? Similarly for Rabbi Eliezer, shouldn't it be in Ellul?

(b) I should probably read the references you give, but is it consistent to rule Birchas haChama following Rabbi Yehoshua, while the molad follows the opinion of Rabbi Eleazar? Since we count years based on Tishrei, and based on the year of Bircas haChama that is coming up, it seems that according to Rabbi Yehosha, the first 25 Adar (and also the first Nissan) is year "1"? Is this correct?

Regards,

Martin

The Kollel replies:

(a) Rabbi Landy wrote the following answer to somoene who wrote a similar question:

Birkas ha'Chamah is dependent on the new season, something which is dictated by the solar calendar only. The spring season beginning on a Tuesday evening is the way it was at the time of creation. The Hebrew date for this can vary. Although the last Bircas ha'Chamah (1981) was indeed on the fourth of Nissan, the next one will take place on Erev Pesach (2009). I hope this clarifies the matter.

(b) Rashi and Tosfos 12a explain that we rule according to Rebbi Yehoshua. However, whenever the Torah gives numbers of years, it starts from Tishrei due to its importance regarding Ma'aser and Shemitah.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld