Rebbe,
The Gemara talks about the time it takes the sun to set and the twilight period before that. The time it takes to walk a mil seems to correspond to our 18 minutes after candle lighting time until if I remember correctly.
I am wondering, though, whether the amount of time that the Gemara describes as when the western sky starts to turn silver (hichshif) or pale on top until it's all the same darkening color varies from country to country. In Eretz Yisrael the sun sets very quickly and the twilight time is much shorter than in America. In Europe this twilight time is yet longer particularly as one goes further north.
Rabbeinu Tam lived in France. Is it possible that his time schedule for bein hashemahot was based on what he observed in France? Would he have known that the sunset comes quicker in Eretz Yisrael? If he did would it have made any difference in his calculations? Should it matter to us where we live or is the matter fixed all over?
B'kavod,
Sam Kosofsky
This is a valid point. Rabbeinu Tam based his opinion on two points. One is the Gemara Pesachim, which states that a person can travel four Milin between sunset and Tseis Hakochavim. Second, he obviously observed the twilight period in his country. It is true that during the summer the twilight period in Eretz Yisroel is shorter than it is in France. I must point out however, that the Shulchan Oruch (OC 261:2) rules in accordance with Rabbeinu Tam despite the fact that it was written in Tzfas. The Sefaradim, who usually follow the Shulcan Oruch, do not accept his opinion on the issue. The majority of Ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel also do not follow this opinion.
Of course, when it comes to practical application one must consult his local orthodox rabbi.
Yehuda Landy
I was extremely happy to receive your reply. I am glad that I pursued it further.
I misunderstood your first reply which you now clarified. It was not clear to me from your first reply that the shiur described does NOT involve any descending from the mountain, which is how I believe most people interpret this Gemara. Your clarification is indeed my interpretation. Thank you.
1) The word Karmel does indeed occur many times with the meaning of garden-land, garden-growth, etc. and apparently as a city in the territory of Yehudah. However,"Har" HaKarmel refers only to the mountain
near Haifa.
2) As I said in my last posting Rebbe never lived in Teverya. That is obvious to all who are familiar with the history of the Tannaim and Amoraim (as well as with the Gemara in Rosh HaShana 31a and b - where there is no intermediate stop in Teverya mentioned). As to the Gemara which you mention in Megilah (what OTHER places?) see the sefer Toldos Tannaim VeAmoraim by R' Aharon Hyman Volume 2 pages 603 and 604 where he strongly endorses the explanation given by the Doros HaRishonim.
3) I will now go back to the reason I need someone with a familiarity of the geography of Haifa. If one looks at the map of Haifa one sees that the Mediterranean Sea bends back South - East of Haifa. The current port of Haifa and the outflow of the River Kishon both are located at a point
almost due East of Har HaKarmel. What I was wondering was whether someone who is standing at the mouth of the Kishon (or thereabouts) could see the setting of the sun on the top of Mount Karmel then Tovel in the Yam. If that is possible then the Gemara is very straightforward.
1) Our Sugya does not mention the word "Har." It says merely "b'Rosh ha'Karmel."
2) The point that you are making is not clear to me. The Gemara in Rosh Hashanah (31b) which you mention explicitly states that Rebbi was in Teveryah (during the time of Antoninus, as Rashi explains in that Gemara). That Rebbi was in Teverya is also implicit in Avodah Zarah 10a-b.
3) Your explanation would indeed make the Gemara very straightforward to understand. Although there is no known place as you describe, it certainly deserves further research.
Thanks!
-Mordecai