Could you clarify a facet of the Gemara on daf 18b - 19a?
Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah holds that maos reshonos lav l'kiddushin nitnu (original money for the sales transaction cannot also be used to make kiddushin). The two points below, taken from your Point By Point, seem to be contradictory. Of course, they probably are alluding to different cases; I'm not clear on that distinction.
Answer (Rav Amram): She became a widow through Yi'ud, according to Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah, who says that the money paid for an Amah was not given for Kidushin. (Therefore, it is as if her father was not Mekadesh her.)
Question: Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak holds that even Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah agrees that the money paid for an Amah was given for Kidushin (if the master will do Yi'ud). How can he explain the Beraisa?
Baruch Wolf, Baltimore, MD, US
Sholom Rav,
The Beraisa of Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah, cited on Daf 19a, makes no mention of whether Ma'os ha'Rishonos is le'Kidushin or not. However, from his statement the Gemara extrapolates that it is not. Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak, on the other hand, maintains that he may even hold that it is. Rav Amram concurs to the first interpretation of Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah.
I hope that this clarifies the issue for you.
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler
Thank you very much for writing back and clarifying.
Another point to clarify: if she is indeed a katana and one holds "maos harishonos lav lekidushin nitnu", even if her adon explains yiud to her beforehand, a katana has no yad l'mekabel. How does a katana make a transaction?
Baruch
Shalom Rav,
From the Mashal the Gemara gives later on the Amud, it is clear that although the money that the master gives the father does not serve as the Kesef Kidushin, nevertheless the Ma'aseh Kidushin takes place when he acquires her, but takes effect only just before the end of the six years -- like someone who is Mekadesh a woman now on condition that the Kidushin will take effect after thirty days.
b'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler