More Discussions for this daf
1. Gematria 502 2. Mishlo'ach Manos From A Man To A Woman 3. Mourners and Shaloch Manos
4. Drink "Ad d'Lo Yada" 5. Revival Shortly After Death 6. Berachos
7. Shmuel's proof of Divine consent 8. Koheles is not Metamei 9. Rabah and Rebbi Zeira
10. Bar Mitzvah in Adar 11. Getting Drunk 12. Mishloach Manos
13. Ruach Hakodesh - Megilah or Mordechai 14. קהלת אינו מטמא את הידים
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MEGILAH 7

Rav Yitzchok Adlerstein asked:

The reasoning seems a bit circular. The only reason to assume that the phrase keemu v'kiblu implies Heavenly confirmation of human acceptance is that the pasuk requires some sort of derasha. But the pasuk only requires a derasha if in fact it was written by ruach hakodesh, the very notion that Shmuel is trying to prove. If it wasn't written through ruach hakodesh, the words could have any number of meanings, as do the works of any human beings unaided by Divine assistance. They don't have to make any sense at all, for that matter. "Extra" words in a sentence are not a problem to understand except in a text written under Divine supervision.

Yitzchok Adlerstein, Los Angeles, CA

The Kollel replies:

Even if the Megilah was not written (or spoken) with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh, it was certainly composed with Chochmah. There is no question that it was very well thought out; it was not written, Chas v'Shalom, like a gossip column.

The Gemara tells us that even when a person writes a document of sale, some Tana'im hold that we may derive Halachic implications from an extra word (Bava Basra 138b, according to Rebbi Akiva; see also Gitin 39a according to Rebbi Meir). The same is said about the wording that Chachamim instituted in a Kesuvah (see Yevamos 117a), which presumably was not composed through Ru'ach ha'Kodesh.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Rav Yitzchok Adlerstein asks further:

(a) Thanks, but it still doesn't work for me. The point is that even if written b'chochmah, there are other ways to justify the two words keemu v'kiblu, other than a reference to what is going on in Bais Din Shel Maalah. Ther gemara's other derasha comes to mind, as just one possibilty of satisfying the pshut hapashut: keemu mah shekiblu kvar.

(b) Between then and now, a colleague, R Yitz Etshalom suggested that Shmuel may mean that the very success in ruchniyus that both Purim and the Megillah itself have had mean that Keemu Lemaalah mah shekiblu lematah - that the source of the day and the megilah are beyond the ordinary ability of Man.

Kol tuv,

Yitzchok Adlerstein, Los Angeles, CA

The Kollel replies:

(a) That is an excellent point; you are asking the question of Tosfos (see Tosfos DH l'Kulhu, for his answer - the Vilna Gaon cited in Kol Eliyahu provides another answer).

(b) That is a nice thought as well. If that were so, shouldn't Shmuel have cited the more explicit verse of Rav Yosef, "The days of Purim shall never pass from the Jewish People..."?

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Kollel Iyun Hadaf

Alex Lebovits comments:

These words kiymu vekiblu would require explanation even if they weren't written by Ruach Hakodesh, and were meant to be taken only literally, for the simple reason that kiymu is not possible without first kiblu. They are similar to the words of Naaseh Venishma. And of course words written even without Ruach Hakodesh have to make sense as Rabbi Kornfeld states.

Kol Tuv

Alex Lebovits