SHAKING WITHOUT INTENT FOR 'NISUCH' (cont.)
Version #1 (our text, Rashi): Rav Huna bar Chinena came to Mechuza (Rava's city). Rava told Rav Elyakim to keep him out, lest he overwhelm him with questions. Even so, he entered.
Rav Huna bar Chinena: What is the law in this case?
Rava: One may not benefit from it.
Rav Huna: You said that shaking (without intent for Nisuch) does not make Yayin Nesech!
Rava: (I agree that it makes Yayin Nesech.) I permitted selling the mixture only on condition to throw away the money corresponding to the Yayin Nesech. (This encounter was after Rava retracted due to Abaye's questions (coming up); he was ashamed to admit his mistake.)
Version #2 (Tosfos): Rav Nachman came to Mechuza. Rava went to see him. He told Rav Elyakim to keep others out, lest they distract them.
Rava: What is the law in this case?
Rav Nachman: One may not benefit from it.
Rava: You said that shaking (without intent for Nisuch) does not make Yayin Nesech!
Rav Nachman: I permitted selling the mixture only on condition to throw away the money corresponding to the Yayin Nesech. (End of Version #2)
Rava: When I came to Pumbadisa, Abaye refuted me from earlier Amora'im and a Beraisa.
Question #1 (Abaye): Cases occurred, and Shmuel (in Neharde'a) and R. Yochanan (in Tiverya) forbade benefit from it!
Answer (Rava): That was not letter of the law. They were stringent because people of those cities were not learned. (Had they permitted it, the inhabitants would have incorrectly extrapolated to other cases.)
Rejection (Abaye): Do you think that people of Mechuza are more learned than those of Neharde'a and Tiverya?!
Question #2 (Abaye - Beraisa): A case occurred in which a Nochri appointed to supervise measures pierced a barrel, inserted a straw and sucked and raised the wine to his mouth, or tasted wine in a cup and returned it to the barrel. Chachamim forbade it.
They forbade benefit from it!
Answer (Rava): No, they forbade only drinking it.
Rejection (Abaye): If so, it should say 'it must be sold', like the Seifa!
(Seifa): A case occurred in which a crazed Nochri stuck his hand in what he thought is oil, but it was really wine. Chachamim ruled that it must be sold.
Rava is refuted.
A 'NOCHRI' WHO DID NOT INTEND FOR 'NISUCH'
R. Yochanan ben Arza and R. Yosi ben Nehorai were drinking wine together. A man came, and they offered him to drink. After he poured from the bottle into his cup, they realized that he was a Nochri. One of these two Chachamim permitted the bottle, and one forbade it.
R. Yehoshua ben Levi: Each of them has a good reason!
The opinion that forbade reasoned that the Nochri assumed that distinguished Chachamim would not drink beer, so surely it is wine. Therefore, he was Menasech;
The opinion that permitted reasoned, the Nochri assumed that Chachamim would not invite a Nochri to drink wine, so surely it is beer. Therefore, he was not Menasech.
Question: The Nochri could see that it was wine!
Answer: It was at night.
Question: He could smell that it was wine!
Answer: It was new wine (which has no smell).
Question: He touched the (Tosfos - wine when he used a) Keli to draw the wine from the barrel. Even without intention, this forbids the wine!
Answer: No, he merely emptied the wine out from a bottle (he merely gave it Ko'ach (impetus));
Chachamim did not forbid a Nochri's Ko'ach when he did not intend to Menasech.
Question (R. Asi): If a Nochri Masach (mixed) wine (with water), what is the law?
R. Yochanan: Why didn't you say Mazag? (The Mishnayos use this word for 'mixed'.)
R. Asi: I use the word that the Torah uses - "Tovechah Tivchah Mosechah Yeinah."
R. Yochanan: Chachamim use words unlike the Torah!
Answer (R. Yochanan): It is forbidden, due to 'Lech Lech... ' (a Nazir should stay far from a vineyard. Likewise, everyone should distance himself from transgression.)
In Savta, R. Yirmeyah saw Yisraelim drinking wine mixed by Nochrim. He forbade this, like R. Yochanan.