More Discussions for this daf
1. Pardoning a debt one has sold 2. Calling someone a descendant of Eli 3. li'Sekunei Shadartich
4. ולא יהא רב פפא כבת רב חסדא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KESUVOS 85

Aurel Littman asked:

someplace around this daf one rabbi reminded the other one that he is a descendant of Eli and therefore he and his mishpocha live short and therefore his statements are not proper. is this not onoas devorim?

The Kollel replies:

The Gemara in Sanhedrin 14a says that part of the punishment of the descendants of Eli were that they would never merit Semichah. This implies that they would not be worthy of Semichah, because they would not merit to come to a correct Halachic conclusion -- Asukei Shmaitsa Aliba d'Hilchesa. (Even though this could be changed slightly through genuinely learning Torah Lishmah, nevertheless whenever they would err in Halachic conclusions, it was because of this punishment that they would err.)

Accordingly, when Rav Bibi bar Abaye erred in a Halachic conclusion, Rav Papi wanted to judge him favorably. He said that it was not because Rav Bibi did not delve into the issue sufficiently, but rather because of the punishment given to his forebear. (See similar explanations in Teshuvos CHAVOS YA'IR, as cited in the end of Sefer Chafetz Chaim.)

M. Kornfeld

Yitzchok Zirkind comments:

The Kollel replied-

>>The Gemara in Sanhedrin 14a says that part of the punishment of the descendants of Eli were that they would never merit Semichah. This implies that they would not be worthy of Semichah, because they would not merit to come to a correct Halachic conclusion -- Asukei Shmaitsa Aliba d'Hilchesa. (Even though this could be changed slightly through genuinely learning Torah Lishmah, nevertheless whenever they would err in Halachic conclusions, it was because of this punishment that they would err.)<<

According to the Sugia in Sanhedrin it was only Smicha for Sanhedrin that they could not get (see Rashi), if they were not able to be Mchavein Aliba Dhilchasa how did he have a Beis Din, and isn't the Halacha like him anyway in this case?

>>Accordingly, when Rav Bibi bar Abaye erred in a Halachic conclusion, Rav Papi wanted to judge him favorably.<<

Why did he have to make a comment altogether? Dan Lkaf Zchus need not be verbalized, wouldn't one be hurt less by being told he made a single error, then to tell him that he couldn't make a right decision?

Perhaps a different approach could be when Rav Papi figured that Rav Beiboi (see further) that he erred he was afraid that his Torah was not Bishleimus and was afraid that if so the Torah that is Michapeir on Beis Eli may not protect him, he reminded him of this so that he correct this and hence be Maarich Yomim, Al Derech B"B 16a Satan Upnenoh Lsheim Shomayim Niskavnu. And see Seder Hadoirois Seder Taanoim Veamoroim under Rav Beiboi Ben Abayei.

BTW in above mentioned Seder Hadoros he brings two ways of pronouncing his name "Beibee" (first Beis with Tzeireh, second Beis with Chirik) or "Beiboi" (Tzireh, Komatz), this second way is also brought in the Mloi Horoi'im on Brochos 6a from the Shaloh based on Ezra.

As an aside it is common in Yeshivos to pronounce the words in the Shas as "My (Pasach under Mem) Mashma" in the Mloi Horoi'im Brochos 5a he brings from the Shaloh Hakodosh to pronounce "M'ei" (Tzereh under the Aleph, which means from where).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind