Ben, it is great to hear from you again! Hope you and your family are all doing well in these difficult times.

1) My initial reaction to this question is that the concept that a Nochri gets Da'as when he is 7-8 all depends on what issue we are discussing. Basically, what I want to say is that the decision to become Jewish is an extremely serious one and for this the Chasam Sofer will agree that at such an early age nobody can be considered sufficiently responsible to decide. I will try and provide some support for my argument.

2) I found in Teshuvas Chasam Sofer Yoreh Deah #184, paragraph beginning uKvar, that he cites the Rosh, in a Teshuvah, that the age of 13 for Mitzvos is a Halacha given to Moshe on Sinai. But then he asks a seeming contradiction in the Rambam. In Hilchos Melachim 9:10 the Rambam writes that if a Nochri eats even the smallest amount of a limb from a live animal, he is liable. The concept of shiurim, that one is only liable for eating a kezayis etc., is only said by Yisroel.

3) The other Rambam is in Hilchos Melachim 10:2, where he writes that if a Nochri was forced by a tyrant to transgress one of the Mitzvos he is allowed to succumb even if he was forced to worship idols. Then the Rambam continues that we never punish a Nochri who is a minor, or deaf and dumb, or lacking intelligence, because the Nochri is not commanded on Mitzvos. The contradiction is that one sees now from the Rambam that there is such an idea of a Nochri being a minor, which seems to go against what we said that a Nochri is always liable if he is intelligent, because shiurim of ages, or amounts needed to be eaten, do not apply to Nochri.

4) The Chasam Sofer answers that the age of 13 is a sort of leniency for Yisrael. Even the most brilliant Jewish genius does not get punished below the age of 13, due to the Halacha l'Moshe MiSinai. This din does not apply for Bnei Noach. However if a Nochri minor was persuaded or seduced to transgress a Mitzvah we say that he too is not held responsible for his actions at such an early age.

5) We see that according to the Chasam Sofer, even though an intelligent Nochri child is expected to keep his Mitzvos, nevertheless if he is cajoled into a sin he is not held responsible. My argument is that we see from this that there is a limit to the amount of maturity we expect from the minor. Therefore it seems to me that a child of 7 or 8 is not yet sufficiently adult to change his life entirely and accept all 613 Mitzvos.

Wishing you a Pesach Kasher veSameach

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply:

The relevance to Pesach:

One of the main aspects of Pesach is the education of the children to Jewish values and they start the evening off by asking the 4 questions. We also learn about the 4 different kinds of children. The wise son has a lot of questions to ask and the other sons do not have so much understanding so we have to help them out. At any rate, if even the smart son has a lot of thinking to do about Torah, we can certainly understand.why a 7-year old child cannot genuinely accept upon himself keeping the Mitzvos.

We should hear good news!

Dovid Bloom

More Maareh Mekomos:

1) Tosfos, in Nazir 57b paragraph beginning veRav Ada (10 lines from the end of the paragraph of Tosfos), writes that "a minor cannot make a Macha'ah". Maybe you could try and push me off and say that this only refers to a Jewish minor, not a Nochri, but the words of Rav Yosef, here in Kesubos, are "when they grow up they can be Mocheh", which suggests that the whole concept of being Mocheh only apllies to an adult, not to a minor, whether he is a Yisroel or a Nochri.

2) I found that the Minchas Chinuch, Mitzvah 2 section 23 paragraph beginning veChein Nireh, does have a question about the minor Ger changing his mind later on. It is not actually the same as your scenario, Ben, but it is an interesting Halacha. He writes the Beis Din did a proper milah and immersion in the Mikveh on the minor, and then when he became 13 he was mocheh. If afterwards he changes his mind and decides he wants to convert after all, it may be that he needs no further Milah or Mikveh because the original ones are effective for later on too. However in the Minchas Chinuch's scenario, all the decisions of the ger were taken once he became an adult.

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

The opinion of the Ran:

1) I saw in the Ran on the Rif here (on page 4a in the Rif pages of the older editions) paragraph beginning "Garsinan", that he asks the following question. Since Rav Yosef said that when the Ger becomes adult he can be Mocheh, this implies that when he is a minor he cannot be Mocheh. If so this makes it difficult to understand what the Gemara says that if she was an adult for one hour and was not Mocheh, she can no longer be Mocheh. How is it possible for the young person to be so precise and be Mocheh immediately when he becomes an adult?! If he misses the protest by one second it is too late and the conversion has already taken effect?!

2) The Ran answers that when the minor is Mocheh this does actually achieve something. If he protests when he is under 13 this does not actually close the door on him becoming a Ger, and if he changes his mind later he is still able to utilise the Gerus that the Beis Din applied for him. However what the protest of his childhood does achieve is that if when he becomes 13 he continues with this position then this protest is effective [it seems to me that the Ran means that if he was Mocheh when he was a minor, then if he does nothing when he becomes 13 this means that he does not become Jewish. It is only if he postiively changed his mind when he became 13 or before he became 13, and said that he has decided that he wants to convert, that the Gerus works].

3) However, in your scenario, Ben, if he made a Macha'ah when he was 7-8 and then at 12 years old changed his mind and says he wants to accept it, the change of mind at 12 would cancel out the earlier Macha'ah and it would be as if he never protested. If he does not make a very quick protest at 13, he will automatically remain Jewish.

Dovid Bloom