In Yevamos 71b Tosafos mentions that the Midrash says that Avraham Avinu did Priya even though he wasn't commanded. Presumably all the Bnai Yisroel did it after him until it was commanded. On the other hand although Tosafos says periyah is Halacha le Moshe MiSinai, the gemara does not actually say that.
Also, does the halacha specifically require a mohel to do periyah on a ger or a Jew who did not have a kosher mila to remove more skin to be equivalent to periyah?
Thanks.
David Goldman, USA
1) There was no such thing as Bnei Yisrael before Yakov Avinu, who was the first to be called Yisrael. In addition, in Mitzrayim it was only the tribe of Levi who observed Milah.
2) I found that the Rishonim cite the account in the Gemara Avodah Zarah, end of 10b, where Ketiyah bar Shalom performed a Milah on himself before he died and was considered a Ger Tzedek through this, even though he did not do Peri'ah. Rabeinu Menachem Rekanti (Dinei Milah #598) cites Rabeinu Eliezer of Mitz who says that we learn from this that it is only a minor who requires Peri'ah, while an adult who does Milah does not require Peri'ah. However, the Ma'aseh Betzalel on the Rekanti writes that it is correct not to change the custom of most Mohelim, who perform Peri'ah on adults also. (The Rekanti is quoted in Sedeh Tzofim, Avodah Zarah 10b, and Teshuvas Ateres Paz, 1:2, Yoreh Deah #11, page 327.)
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
Thank you. I did mean that B'nai Yisroel were the descendants of Yaakov.
But I didn't know that they all stopped doing mila as the mitzva from Avraham, except for the tribe of Levi... When did they stop doing it in Egypt??
About priyah, why would that step not be required if it says "mal velo para, ke-ilu lo mal" and why should it make any difference for an adult?
In any case, does this mean that priya even for a baby was only a later gezeyra since there were hellenized Jews who used to do procedures to hide the mila, which is impossible if priya is done?
1) The Midrash Rabah (Shemos Rabah 1:8) states that after Yosef died they annuled Bris Milah. They said, "We will be like the Egyptians!"
2) Possibly, the source is Rashi to Bereshis 17:25, who implies that it was not necessary to do Peri'ah for Avraham Avinu, because the skin had already been crushed through Tashmish.
3) I would like to suggest a source to say that it is possible to do procedures to hide the Milah, even though Peri'ah has been done. This is from Sanhedrin 44a, which tells us that Achan, who took from the spoils of the city of Ai, was also "Moshech b'Orloso" -- he "pulled" his Orlah, this being despite the fact that presumably he was one of those on whom Peri'ah had been performed not long before, as the Gemara in Yevamos (71b) states that Yehoshua did Peri'ah.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
Thank you. Does this mean that if despite a secular circumcision hatafas dam is not sufficient and priya is still required, or is there a Chazal that in adults no priya is relevant, and only hatafas dam is required?
In the case of Achan, isn't it possible that in fact Priya was not required in those days as some suggest, that it was a gezeyra in the time of Bayis Sheni?
Finally, in Egypt there were certainly great people of every tribe, including Efraim and Menashe. Either they determined that the bris of Avraham was no davka a chiyuv and maybe only a minhag. Besides, even after Sinai they had a heter even in the ananei hakavod not to do any brisin at all....
1) This is a Machlokes ha'Poskim. According to the Yere'im (#402[19]), written by Rabeinu Eliezer of Mitz (whom I cited in my first reply), an adult does not have to do Peri'ah. However, the Maharshal in Yam Shel Shlomo (Yevamos 8:3) disagrees with the Yere'im and rules that Peri'ah is required also for an adult. As I mentioned previously, the Ma'aseh Betzalel on Piskei Rekanti, Hilchos Milah #598, writes that it is correct not to change the custom of the majority of Mohelim who do Peri'ah also on adults.
2) The Gemara in Yevamos 71b states that Yehoshua performed Peri'ah when he circumcised the entire nation. Tosfos (DH Lo) writes that Peri'ah is a Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai, but Yehoshua found a source for it in the verse.
3) The Midrash Rabah (Shemos 1:8) applies the verse in Hoshea 5:7, "They were treacherous to Hash-m, for they have born strange sons," to the fact that they abandoned Milah in Egypt. This started after the generation of Efrayim and Menasheh.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom