Question (Abaye - Beraisa): Perhaps "Ish (who will have Bi'ah with a Shifchah Charufah (a semi-married slave) in a way proper to eject semen)" applies only to an adult;

Question: What is the source to include a nine year- old boy, who can have Bi'ah?

Answer: We learn from "v'Ish."

Answer (Rabah): A nine year-old can have Bi'ah (with semen), but it will not lead to a child, just like grain less than a third grown (it has seeds, but they will not sprout).

(D'Vei Chizkiyah): "V'Chi Yazid Ish" - an Ish 'cooks' his seed (enabling it to produce a child) before ejecting it, but a minor does not.

Question (Rav Mordechai): What is the source that 'Mezid' connotes cooking?

Answer (Rav Ashi): "Va'Yazed Yakov Nazid."

Question (Beraisa - Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael): "Ben" excludeds a father.

Question: What is the case (that the Torah must exclude a father from becoming a Ben Sorer u'Moreh)?

Suggestion: He impregnated his wife (or any woman) after he became an adult, and she gave birth before his (lower) beard filled out.

Rejection: R. Kruspedai taught that a boy can become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh during only three months (at the beginning of his adulthood. Pregnancy always exceeds six months!)

Answer: We must say 'he impregnated her (more than three months) before he was an adult, and she gave birth before his beard filled out.

Inference: This shows that a minor can father children!

Answer (and Answer #2 to Question (1)): Really, he impregnated her after he became an adult, and she gave birth after his beard filled out.

Question: The birth must be more than six months into his adulthood. Ben Sorer u'Moreh applies only during the first three months!

Answer (Rav Dimi): Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael teaches that he cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once he can properly be called a father (i.e. his wife could be visibly pregnant, i.e. three months after he became an adult).

(R. Kruspedai): A boy can become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh during only three months.

Question (Mishnah): A boy can become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh from the time he brings two hairs until his beard fills out.

Answer: He cannot become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh once his beard fills out or after three months into his adulthood.

(R. Yakov of Nehar Pekod citing Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua): We learn from R. Kruspedai that if a woman will give birth after seven months, she will not be recognizably pregnant (like most women are) after a third of the pregnancy.

If she would be, a boy would be too old to be a Ben Sorer u'Moreh two and a third months after becoming an adult (for he could be called a father)!

Rejection (Ravina): Perhaps she is recognizably pregnant after a third, but the law of Ben Sorer u'Moreh is based on the majority (most babies are born after nine months).

(Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua (after he heard this)): We do not follow the majority in capital cases - "v'Shoftu ha'Edah v'Hitzilu ha'Edah." If we can find a reason to exempt (e.g. he could be called a father), we do!

Rejection #1 (Ravina): We do follow the majority!

(Mishnah): If one witness says 'it was the second of the month', and the other says 'it was the third', their testimony stands. We assume that the first heard that the month was Me'ubar, and the latter did not (therefore, he thought that it was the third).

If we would not follow the majority (most people sometimes err about which day was Rosh Chodesh), we would say that neither errs, rather, they refer to different days, and the testimony is invalid!

Rejection #2 (R. Yirmeyah mi'Difti - Mishnah): The following apply to a girl above three years:

She can become Mekudeshes through Bi'ah. If she fell to Yibum and did Yibum, it takes effect;

If she is married, one is liable for her due to Eshes Ish. One who has Bi'ah with her (when she is Nidah) becomes Tamei, and he is Metamei a mattress under him like a Keli above (a Zav and touching him);

If she has Nisu'in with a Kohen, she may eat Terumah. If a Pasul had Bi'ah with her, she is disqualified from Kehunah;

If any of the Arayos had Bi'ah with her, he is killed, and she is exempt.

Question: Why can we kill? We should be concerned lest she is an Ailonis (a girl who will not develop like a normal female). Her husband never intended to be Mekadesh an Ailonis, so her Kidushin is invalid!

Answer: We must say that we follow the majority. Most women are not Ailoniyos!

Rejection (of this rejection): No. One who has Bi'ah with her is liable to bring a Korban due to Eshes Ish (if he was Shogeg, but we would not rely on the majority to kill him).

Question: It says that men are killed for (Bi'ah with) her!

Answer #1: This refers to her father (he is liable even if she is single).

Question: It says that any of the Arayos are killed due to her!

Answer #2: The case is, her husband agreed to be Mekadesh her even if she is an Ailonis.

(Beraisa - Beis Shamai): If a woman was sporting with her son and he did Ha'ara'ah, she is disqualified from Kehunah;

Beis Hillel permit her.

(Rav Chisda): All agree that Bi'ah of a nine year-old boy is considered Bi'ah. If he is less than eight, it is not considered Bi'ah;

They argue about a boy between eight and nine. Beis Shamai learn from previous generations (an eight year-old could father a child), and Beis Hillel do not.

Question: What is the source that an eight year-old could father a child?

Answer #1: We learn from the ancestry of Shlomo.

Shlomo was seven years old when Achitofel (his great grandfather) died;

(Beraisa): "Anshei Damim u'Mirmah Lo Yechetzu Yemeihem" (they will not live even 35 years, half a normal lifetime) - Do'eg lived 34 years, and Achitofel lived 33.

Shlomo was born when Achitofel was 26. If we assume that each of the three generations was eight and two-thirds years apart, and allow about eight months for each pregnancy, each generation fathered the next at (about) the age of eight!

Rejection: Perhaps the generations were not evenly spaced, rather, Bas Sheva was six when she became pregnant with Shlomo, her grandfather and father were each nine when they fathered (her father and Bas Sheva);

Women are healthier than men, so they can have children earlier.

Support: Bas Sheva had a child (i.e. the one that died) even before Shlomo. (I do not understand this support. Perhaps the generations from Achitofel until Bas Sheva's first son (25 years later) were evenly spaced, i.e. each was eight and a third years older than his or her child!)

Answer #1: We learn from the birth of Sarah.

"Terach Holid Es Avraham Es Nachor v'Es Haran" - allowing a year between each, Avraham was two years older than Haran;

(R. Yitzchak): Yiskah (the daughter of Haran) is Sarah. She is called Yiskah because she was Socheh (saw) with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh - "Kol Asher Tomar Elecha Sarah Shma b'Kolah."

Also, she is called Yiskah because everyone used to look at her beauty.

"...Hal'Ven Me'ah...Sarah ha'Vas Tish'im" - Avraham was 10 years older than Sarah, and he was two years older than her father, i.e. Haran was eight when she was born!

Rejection: Perhaps Avraham was younger than Haran, and the Torah lists them in order of Chachmah.

Support: The Torah lists Noach's children in order of their Chachmah!

"Noach was 500 years old; he fathered Shem, Cham and Yafes";

The flood came 100 years later (Noach was 600), and "Shem Ben Me'as Shanah...Shenasayim Achar ha'Mabul."

If Shem were the firstborn, he should have been 102!

Rather, we must say that the Torah lists them in order of Chachmah.

Rav Zevid mi'Neharde'a: You learn it from there, and I learn it from the following:

"Achi Yefes ha'Gadol" - Yefes was the oldest of the brothers.

Answer #2: We learn from the ancestry of Betzalel:

Betzalel was (at least) 13 when he made the Mishkan for it says "Ish Ish mi'Melachto";

The Mishkan was made in the first year (of leaving Miztrayim). In the second year it was erected and the Meraglim were sent;

Kalev, the father of the father of Betzalel's father, was 40 when he went with the Meraglim, i.e. he was 26 when Betzalel was born.

The generations were (on the average) eight and two- thirds years apart. Allowing eight months for each pregnancy, each generation fathered the next at (an average of) eight years! (Even if they were not evenly spaced, at least one of them fathered a son when he was at most eight.)

(Mishnah): A son, and not a daughter.

(Beraisa - R. Shimon): The Parshah of Ben Sorer u'Moreh should apply also to a girl. If she gets addicted to meat and wine, she will become a harlot to support her habit;

The Torah decreed that it applies only to boys.