12th CYCLE DEDICATION
KESUVOS 91 - Dedicated in memory of Irene Edelstein, by Josh Rebbi Danziger of Cliffside Park, New Jersey.

1)

(a)Rav Yosef just established the Machlokes between the Tana Kama of the Beraisa and Rebbi Shimon like he established that of ben Nannes and Rebbi Akiva (whether the Kesuvas Benin Dichrin of the heirs of the wife who died after her husband is considered Mosar Dinar or not. We suggest that perhaps they are arguing over whether the Mosar Dinar needs to be Karka or not. What will each one then hold?

(b)On what grounds do we reject ...

1. ... this suggestion?

2. ... the suggestion that Rebbi Shimon comes to permit even Meshubadim (fields of their father that are Meshubad to creditors), whereas the Tana Kama disagrees?

3. ... the suggestion that Rebbi Shimon comes to permit even less than a Dinar, whereas the Tana Kama requires at least a Dinar (besides on the grounds of the previous Kashya)?

(c)We suggest that perhaps, we ought to switch the opinions, in which case, Rebbi Shimon will require a Dinar and it is the Tana Kama who does not. How will we then interpret the words of the Tana Kama 'Ba'in Banehah shel Zu l'Achar Misah v'Notlin Kesuvas Iman'? To which set of heirs will it then refer?

(d)On what basis do we reject this suggestion?

1)

(a)Rav Yosef just established the Machlokes between the Tana Kama of the Beraisa and Rebbi Shimon like he established that of ben Nannes and Rebbi Akiva (whether the Kesuvas Benin Dichrin of the heirs of the wife who died after her husband is considered Mosar Dinar or not). We suggest that perhaps they both agree that it is, and that they argue over whether the Mosar Dinar needs to be Karka or not - the Tana Kama holds that it does, and Rebbi Shimon holds that it does not.

(b)We reject ...

1. ... this suggestion - on the grounds that Rebbi Shimon himself (in the next Mishnah) specifically requires Karka.

2. ... the suggestion that Rebbi Shimon comes to permit even Meshubadim (fields of their father that are Meshubad to creditors), whereas the Tana Kama disagrees - on the grounds that, if Rebbi Shimon is coming to be lenient (as all the current explanations assume), then he should have said 'Keivan she'Yesh Sham Mosar Dinar ... ', rather than 'Im Yesh Sham Mosar Dinar' (which implies that he is coming to be strict).

3. ... the suggestion that Rebbi Shimon comes to permit even less than a Dinar, whereas the Tana Kama requires at least a Dinar (besides on the grounds of the previous Kashya) - on the grounds that Rebbi Shimon himself specifically requires a Dinar.

(c)We suggest that perhaps, we ought to switch the opinions, in which case, Rebbi Shimon will require a Dinar and it is the Tana Kama who does not. In that case - the words of the Tana Kama 'Ba'in Banehah shel Zu l'Achar Misah v'Notlin Kesuvas Iman' will then refer to the first set of heirs (unlike the explanation of Rav Yosef on the previous Amud).

(d)We reject this suggestion however - on the basis of the fact that the Tana Kama of Rebbi Shimon in the following Mishnah (whom we presume to be the same Tana as that of the Beraisa), specifically requires a Dinar.

2)

(a)In any event, we do accept the suggestion to switch the opinions (seeing as it is evident from Rebbi Shimon's Lashon that he comes to be stringent). In which two possible ways do we finally establish the Machlokes (not like Rav Yosef)?

2)

(a)In any event, we do accept the suggestion to switch the opinions (seeing as it is evident from Rebbi Shimon's Lashon that he comes to be stringent). We finally establish the Machlokes - either when there is an extra Dinar of Metaltelin, or when it is in the form of Meshubadim (either of which the Tana Kama validates Kesuvas Benin Dichrin, and Rebbi Shimon does not).

3)

(a)Mar Zutra Amar Rav Papa finally rules 'Achas b'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso, Yesh Lahen Kesuvas Benin Dichrin' and 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah'. Having ruled ...

1. ... 'Achas ba'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso, Yesh Lahen Kesuvas Benin Dichrin', why did he find it necessary to rule 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah'? What might we otherwise have thought?

2. ... 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah', why did he find it necessary to rule 'Achas ba'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso Yesh Lahen Kesuvas Benin Dichrin'?

(b)Why can we not apply the principle 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah', when both wives died in their husband's lifetime?

(c)Why might there be a difference between there where the woman who died after her husband left daughters, and where she left sons? Why might we worry about coming to a quarrel in the latter case? ...

(d)... but not in the former one?

3)

(a)Mar Zutra Amar Rav Papa finally rules 'Achas b'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso, Yesh Lahen Kesuvas Benin Dichrin' and 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah'. Having ruled ...

1. ... 'Achas b'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso, Yesh Lahen Kesuvas Benin Dichrin', he nevertheless found it necessary to rule 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah' - because we might otherwise have thought, that even though one of the sets of heirs claims in the capacity of creditors, an extra Dinar will nevertheless be required before Kesuvas Benin Dichrin can take effect.

2. ... 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah', he nevertheless found it necessary to rule 'Achas b'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso, Yesh Lahen K'suvas Benin Dichrin' - because we would otherwise have established the case when the mothers of both sets of sons who are claiming their mother's Kesubah died during their husband's lifetime, but that there is a third wife who died after her husband, and who has left only daughters (who claim their mother's Kesubah but not Kesuvas Benin Dichrin) (when 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah' applies, but not 'Achas b'Chayav v'Achas b'Moso').

(b)We cannot apply the principle 'Kesubah Na'asis Mosar la'Chavertah' when both wives died in their husband's lifetime - because, if we did, then in which case would Chazal require a Mosar Dinar?!

(c)The difference between there where the woman who died after her husband left daughters, to where she left sons is - that where she left sons, the sons can counter the first wife's heirs who are claiming their mother's (larger) Kesubah from their father with the argument that they are claiming their mother's Kesubah as heirs of their mother, and as far as the remainder of their father's property is concerned, they are all equal heirs (so why should the other set of heirs receive more than they in his property?).

(d)Where the latter wife left only daughters however, there is no reason to worry about strife - because the daughters are not heirs of their father, so what claim can they have against the sons of the first two wives claiming their mother's Kesubah from their father?

4)

(a)We have already learned that Kesuvas Benin Dichrin only applies if a Dinar remains for the heirs to inherit. What will be the Din if the sons of the wife with the larger Kesubah agree to assess their portion at a higher rate, so that an extra Dinar remains?

(b)Can a debt of their father's that is waiting to be claimed count as the extra Dinar?

(c)What does Rebbi Shimon say about a Mosar Dinar that consists of Metaltelin?

4)

(a)We have already learned that Kesuvas Benin Dichrin only applies if a Dinar remains for the heirs to inherit. If the sons of the wife with the larger Kesubah agree to assess their portion at a higher rate, so that an extra Dinar remains - we reject their 'kind' offer. Beis-Din assess the inheritance at the going rate, and whatever remains after the two Kesuvos have been covered, remains.

(b)A debt of their father's that is waiting to be claimed - cannot be included as part of the extra Dinar.

(c)According to Rebbi Shimon - the Mosar Dinar must comprise Karka, not Metaltelin.

5)

(a)What will be the Din if, when the husband died, there was an extra Dinar, but the value of the property decreased, with the result that by the time Beis-Din assessed it, it no longer existed?

(b)What did Rav Amram order the heirs of the smaller Kesubah to do, in a case where the value of the property increased, so that by the time the Beis-Din came to assess it, it was worth a Dinar? Why did he do that?

(c)What did he threaten to do, when they refused to comply?

(d)What did Rav Nachman finally rule?

5)

(a)If, when the husband died, there was an extra Dinar, but the value of property decreased, with the result that by the time that Beis-Din assessed the property, it no longer existed - we go after the time of the father's death, in which case, the heirs of the larger Kesubah have already merited their mother's Kesubah, by the time the Beis-Din assess it.

(b)In a case where the value of the property increased before the assessment, Rav Amram (who was unsure what the Halachah was in such a case) ordered the heirs of the smaller Kesubah - to appease the heirs of the larger Kesubah (to refrain from claiming their mother's Kesuvas Benin Dichrin).

(c)When they refused to comply - he threatened to place them in Cherem.

(d)Rav Nachman finally ruled that, irrespective of whether the value of property increased or decreased, we go after its value at the time of the husband's death. Consequently - the heirs of the larger Kesubah have no claim, and it is unnecessary for the heirs of the smaller Kesubah to appease the heirs of the larger Kesubah.

91b----------------------------------------91b

6)

(a)A man who owed his friend a thousand Zuz, sold his two mansions to the same purchaser for five hundred Zuz each. What ultimatum did the purchaser offer the creditor, who had already claimed one of the mansions, when he came to claim the second one?

(b)Rami bar Chama tried to compare this case to our Mishnah, which forbids the heirs to inflate the price of their father's property, in order to gain their mother's Kesubah. On what grounds did Rava reject his comparison?

(c)In a very similar incident, Rav Yosef, like Rami bar Chama, thought to learn from our Mishnah that one cannot inflate the value of a field to one's own advantage. What did Abaye say to him?

6)

(a)A man who owed his friend a thousand Zuz, sold his two mansions to the same purchaser for five hundred Zuz each. When the creditor, who had already claimed one of the mansions, came to claim the second one - the purchaser offered him an ultimatum. Either, he said, he accept the mansion that he already claimed as if it was worth a thousand Zuz, or he must accept a thousand Zuz from him in exchange for it (because that was how much it was worth to him).

(b)Rami bar Chama tried to compare this case to our Mishnah, which forbids the heirs to inflate the price of their father's property, in order to gain their mother's Kesubah. Rava rejects his comparison however - on the grounds that in our Mishnah, inflating the price causes a loss to the other set of orphans, whereas in this case, raising the price of the mansion does not cause the creditor a loss, since he receives the thousand Zuz that he lent the debtor (because he had the option of taking the thousand Zuz cash that the purchaser offered him).

(c)In a very similar incident, Rav Yosef, like Rami bar Chama, thought to learn from our Mishnah that one cannot inflate the value of a field to one's own advantage. Abaye told him - exactly the same as Rava told Rami bar Chama.

7)

(a)When the same purchaser asked the Beis-Din to write him out a document for the debtor to compensate him for his loss, Ravina held that they should write him a document for a thousand Zuz (which is how much the mansion was worth to both him and the creditor). What did Rav Avira say?

(b)Like whom is the Halachah?

7)

(a)When the purchaser asked the Beis-Din to write him out a document for the debtor to compensate him for his loss, Ravina held that they should write him a document for a thousand Zuz (which is how much the mansion was worth to both him and the creditor). According to Rav Avira - they had to write out a document for five hundred Zuz (the real value of the mansion).

(b)The Halachah - is like Rav Avira.

8)

(a)In another case, what did the orphans do, when their father's creditor (whom he had owed a hundred Zuz) claimed a small plot of land worth fifty Zuz as half his debt?

(b)Were they obligated to pay their father's debt?

(c)On what grounds did Abaye uphold the claim of the creditor, who then claimed the land anyway?

(d)How could the orphans have prevented him from doing that?

8)

(a)In another case, when the orphan's father's creditor (whom he had owed a hundred Zuz) claimed a small plot of land worth fifty Zuz as half his debt - the orphans offered him fifty Zuz to get rid off him.

(b)Although it is a Mitzvah to pay one's father's debts - orphans are not obligated to do so.

(c)When the creditor then claimed the land anyway - Abaye upheld his claim - since all the immobile property of the debtor remains Meshubad to the creditor.

(d)The orphans could have prevented him from doing that - had they specifically stipulated that the money that they gave him was to pay for the plot of land.

9)

(a)A certain man sold his mother's Kesubah for Tovas Hana'ah. What was his mother's status at the time?

(b)What does Tovas Hana'ah mean in this case?

(c)What did he stipulate when he sold it?

(d)His mother subsequently died and he came to claim the Kesubah from the purchaser as his mother's heir. What did ...

1. ... Rami bar Chama contend?

2. ... Rava counter?

9)

(a)A certain man sold his mother's Kesubah for Tovas Hana'ah. His mother at the time - was married to another man.

(b)Tovas Hana'ah in this case - means the small amount that the Kesubah was worth to the purchaser, bearing in mind that a. the woman might have died before her husband (in which case, her husband would inherit it) and b. even if the husband would die first, perhaps her son (the seller) would die before her, in which case, the sale would be invalid (seeing as the son was not the purchaser's Shaliach).

(c)When selling the field, the son stipulated that he would not take accept Acharayus, should his mother protest to the sale.

(d)His mother subsequently died and he came to claim the Kesubah from the purchaser as his mother's heir.

1. Rami bar Chama contended - that seeing as he was his mother's heir, his condition extended to himself claiming too. Consequently, he was not obligated to compensate the purchaser for having caused him a loss.

2. ... Rava countered - that his condition did not cover losses that he himself caused the purchaser, and that he was therefore Chayav to compensate him.

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