More Discussions for this daf
1. Counting by estimate 2. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin 3. Beitzah of a Tereifah?
4. Heter Ochel Nefesh -- Gedarim 5. Machshirei Ochel Nefesh 6. Litra Ketzi'os
7. The Halachah concerning squeezing a lemon 8. Rashi 9. Hen and its eggs
10. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin 11. Safek Egg 12. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin
13. Yoshev u'Metzapeh 14. Safek Nolad
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BEITZAH 3

J. Hollander asked:

Dear Rabbi,

Who are the authors of "Rashi" on this tractate?

I say "authorS" in the plural, because of the following:

רש"י מסכת ביצה דף ג עמוד א ד"ה שמא יסחוט - וסחיטת פירות תולדה דדש היא, שמפרקן מתוך זג שלהן, כמפרק תבואה מקש שלה.

In other words, the enclosing membrane of - say a grape - is called זג

However further down on the same page, the enclosing membrane is called חרצן:

רש"י מסכת ביצה דף ג עמוד א ד"ה ומשקין בלועין - בחרצן, וזבין לחוץ

It is hardly likely that the same person used two opposing nouns for the same thing on on page!

Brachot,

Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander

The Kollel replies:

The Rishonim on Beitzah cite Rashi extensively, by name. What they quote can be found in our Rashi, so it is safe to assume that Rashi indeed authored the Rashi printed in our Gemara.

There indeed are later additions that appear in the printed Rashi but which were not part of Rashi's Perush. For instance, on Daf 26, DH veha'Tanya does not appear in some manuscripts of Rashi, nor is it cited in his name by any of the Rishonim (who themselves ask the question presented there and offer the same answer). I discussed this in my Shiur on that Sugya yesterday and proved (based on the words of the Shitah) that that gloss could not have been written by Rashi.

However, in those cases the wording and style usually give it away (such as "v'Im Tomar . . . Taritz"), and it is a stand-alone significant addition. In the case you mentioned, I did not find another Girsa in records from manuscripts.

As for your question, the Rashash noted the inconsistency, as you did, but did not provide any resolution. The Mishnah in Nazir 34b brings a debate among the Tana'im whether the grapeskin is called Zag or Chartzan, but Rashi and the Rishonim generally use Zag for the skin, and Chartzan for the pits. The Gemara also (Berachos 22a etc.) talks about planting "Chartzan". I do not know why the second Rashi uses "Chartzan" for the skin of the grape.

However, I found Rashi in Bava Metzia 92b who also interchanges the terms, writing

ד"ה משיקפה: משיקפאו החרצנים על פי הבור כשמתחיל להיות תוסס ונוטלין הזגין ומשליכן (וראה ד"ה משישלה)

(Elsewhere, he only refers to the Chartzanim - Rashi, Avodah Zarah 56a, Beitzah 14b.)

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

J. Hollander asked:

ברש"י ביצה דף ג. ד"ה שמא יסחוט כתב, וז"ל, וסחיטת פירות תולדה דדש היא, שמפרקן מתוך זג שלהן, כמפרק תבואה מקש שלה, ע"כ. אבל בהמשך שם ד"ה ומשקין בלועין כתב רש"י שהמשקין בלועין בחרצן, וזבין לחוץ, ע"כ, ודבריו סותרים את עצמם מרישא לסיפא.

אשמח אם תוכלו לעזור לי ביישוב דברי רש"י בזה.

ישעיהו הכהן הולנדר

The Kollel replies:

The Rishonim on Beitzah cite Rashi extensively, by name. What they quote can be found in our Rashi, so it is safe to assume that Rashi indeed authored the Rashi printed in our Gemara.

There indeed are later additions that appear in the printed Rashi but which were not part of Rashi's Perush. For instance, on Daf 26, DH veha'Tanya does not appear in some manuscripts of Rashi, nor is it cited in his name by any of the Rishonim (who themselves ask the question presented there and offer the same answer). I discussed this in my Shiur on that Sugya yesterday and proved (based on the words of the Shitah) that that gloss could not have been written by Rashi.

However, in those cases the wording and style usually give it away (such as "v'Im Tomar . . . Taritz"), and it is a stand-alone significant addition. In the case you mentioned, I did not find another Girsa in records from manuscripts.

As for your question, the Rashash noted the inconsistency, as you did, but did not provide any resolution. The Mishnah in Nazir 34b brings a debate among the Tana'im whether the grapeskin is called Zag or Chartzan, but Rashi and the Rishonim generally use Zag for the skin, and Chartzan for the pits. The Gemara also (Berachos 22a etc.) talks about planting "Chartzan". I do not know why the second Rashi uses "Chartzan" for the skin of the grape.

However, I found Rashi in Bava Metzia 92b who also interchanges the terms, writing

ד"ה משיקפה: משיקפאו החרצנים על פי הבור כשמתחיל להיות תוסס ונוטלין הזגין ומשליכן (וראה ד"ה משישלה)

(Elsewhere, he only refers to the Chartzanim - Rashi, Avodah Zarah 56a, Beitzah 14b.)

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Rav Ben Arza adds (in Hebrew):

עמד על כך הרש"ש. וע' נזיר לד: מח' רבי יהודה ור' יוסי בפירוש הכתוב 'מחרצים ועד זג', האם החרצנים הם החיצונים והזגים הפנימיים או להפך. ונראה לכאורה שסבר רש"י שלכו"ע אפשר לומר 'חרצן' ואפשר לומר 'זג' על החיצוניים, והמחלוקת רק בפסוק שכתוב בו את שניהם, מה מתפרש החיצוני ומה הפנימי.

בברכה. יוסף בן ארזה.