More Discussions for this daf
1. Roasting the meat of the Korban Pesach 2. "Eish" and "Gachalei" 3. Issur of Kdei Klipa or Kdei Netila for Korban Pesach
4. Burning Bas Kohen for adultery 5. Review Questions 6. Rav Papa's Definition Of Ervah

Jeff Ram asked:

Dear Rabbi Kornfeld;

I'm a little confused regarding the conclusions the gemara reaches on

roasting meat. The mishna (74a) says that the korbon pesach may not be

roasted on an askela (grill or griddle) since it will cook by means of the

*griddle's* heat rather than by the flame of the fire, and it is therefore

not considered "Tzli Esh". The gemara (75a) explains that the Mishna only

prohibits using an un-perforated grill; however, roasting the korban

pesach on a perforated grill is permitted since the meat is cooked directly

by the fire. The gemara also concludes that had the Torah not written

"Tzli Esh" twice, we would have permitted cooking it in roasting the Pesach

by the heat of the oven, since this is also considered "Tzli Esh", albeit

second hand.

Does this mean that ordinary beef (that we would eat today) that has been properly shechted, but unsalted, and then cooked on a modern day bar-b-que grill is permissable? Does the fire actually cook the meat, or do the metal wires of the grill, which have been heated by the fire (or the red-hot coals) of the bar-b-que actually cook the meat. If it's the wires, then is it still considered that the fire is "drawing out" the blood; or do we say that since the grill has large holes, that the fire is actually cooking all of the meat, and blood from the part of the meat that rests on the wires can flow out through the parts of the meat that's over the holes?

Even more specifically, I'm questioning how we would hold on 'basar kafui', which has become popular in Israel recently. Some people object to the salting method, but if that meat is cooked over an open flame grill, need we worry about whether it's been salted or not?

I look forward to your clarification,

warm regards,

Jeff Ram

The Kollel replies:

(a) There are two types of roasting -- direct roasting (where the flame comes into direct contact with the meat), and indirect roasting (where the meat is heated by a flame but part of that heat is transferred via some other medium, such as the bars of a grill). The effects of both types are exactly the same, it's just that the Korban Pesach requires direct roasting, as you wrote, due to the Gezeiras ha'Kasuv of "Tzli Esh... Tzli Esh." In order to extract blood, though, this form of roasting is not necessary. Of course, we do find in the laws of Melichah that when roasting meat in order to extract the blood, there must be plenty of open space for the blood to flow out of the meat (but not because the heat is not strong enough to extract the blood).

(b) "Basar Kafu" is a different problem. The objection to meat that has been frozen before salting is that once an animal dies, it must be salted within three days; otherwise, its blood becomes hardened inside of it and cannot be properly removed through salting. The meat may be roasted, though, in order to remove its blood (SHULCHAN ARUCH YD 69:12). However, if the meat is soaked in water for a short amount of time ( not 24 hours, because then the Ta'am of the blood becomes completely mixed with the meat, because Kavush k'Mevushal), then that "loosens" the blood and the meat can go for another three days (ibid. 69:13).

Now, when the meat is frozen and left for three days, if the freezing is considered like water, then the blood becomes irrevocably absorbed into the meat and cannot be removed through salting. If it is not like water, then the meat has gone three days without being salted, and it can no longer be salted to remove its blood (Minchas Yakov #14, cited by the Be'er Hetev YD 69:8 and Pischei Teshuvah 69:6). However, the Minchas Yakov concludes that such meat could be roasted in order to remove the blood, as you suggested.

Best regards,