More Discussions for this daf
1. French terms in Tosfos 2. Shitas Rebbi Yehudah 3. חלט ואח"כ אפה באילפס
4. כגון שחזר ואפאו בתנור 5. מצה אפויה בחמה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - PESACHIM 37

Sholem asks:

If I have correctly understood according to Reb Yehuda once the dough has been fried even if put into an oven cannot be subject to Challoh as it is not called "lechem".

How does Reb Yehuda subscribe to the various types of Menochois which are called "lechem" despite the different ways in which they are "baked"? He also wouldn't need the exemption of "Momoin Gevoah" to exclude them from Challoh..

Sholem , UK

The Kollel replies:

It seems that this question was asked by the Brisker Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Dovid Soloveitchik shilta; he should have a Refuah Sheleimah; to his father the Brisker Rov zt'l.

In Shiurei Rabeinu Meshulam Dovid Halevi on Menachos 50b, page 148 column 1, DH veAyin, he asks that according to Resh Lakish, in Pesachim 37a, that it is only called bread if it was baked in an oven, how then can Minchas Machvas and Marcheshes be considered bread?

The Brisker Rov answered that it is obvious that one makes Hamotzi on the latter Menachos.

B'ezer Hash-m I will have to try and learn this properly.

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply:

Sholem, this is a difficult question!

1) I am going to leave aside, for the moment, the approach of Rabeinu Meshulam Dovid that I cited above. I am not sure anyway if he is asking your question, because he is discussing Minchas Machavas and Marcheshes, which were prepared in a pan, not at all in an oven, whilst your question is from Rabbi Yehuda on 37b who said that it is only considered lechem if it was baked in the oven right from the beginning, and it does not help to rebake it in the oven.

2) I found in the back of Maseches Bechoros, in the standard editions where the Hilchos Chalah of the Ramban is printed, that the Maharit Algazi, in his famous work on Hilchos Chalah, cites the Toras Cohanim. This is from #4(2) of the Maharit Algazi DH vI'K Kashe, on page 104 of the Oz veHadar Gemara. Toras Cohanim states that the "Moorbeches" Mincha of Vayikra 6:13 was prepared from flour and boiling water. Maharit Algazi points out that this is the Chalitah mentioned by our Gemara top 37b. Maharit Algazi writes that this is called Lechem by the Torah in Shemos 29:1.

3) Now Maharit Algazi cites the Gemara Eruvin 96b that we can assume that an anonyomous opinion cited in the Sifra is the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda. Since the Toras Cohanim and the Sifra are identical it now follows that acccording to R. Yehudah flour placed onto boiling water is the Moorbeches of the Torah, and the Torah calls it bread. Maharit Algazi adds that clearly the Moorbeches was baked in the oven after the flour was placed on the boling water. This means that we have now established that according to R. Yehuda flour placed on boiling water, and afterwards baked in an oven, is considered by the Torah as bread.

4) But how does this reconcile with R. Yehuda stated in our Gemara that it is only called bread if it was baked in the oven right from the beginning?! Maharit Algazi answers based on the Baal Hamaor in our sugya, on the Rif DH ubeMaaseh Ilfas, who writes that it is only according to Resh Lakish that the bread has to be baked in the oven right from the start. Rabbi Yochanan maintains that according to R. Yehudah it is sufficient if it is baked in the oven afterwards.

5) What we have done here is to cite the Baal Hamaor that R. Yochanan says that if the dough was put in an oven later on it is called lechem, so this may be an answer to your question.

Sholem, a big Yasher Koach for opening up this sugya!

Dovid Bloom