For a kosher shechita we need only cut the trachea and esophagus (÷?? & ???) . How does this alone kill the animal? The trachea is a hard tube and air can still enter. Doctors perform a trachaeotomy on humans by making a hole in the trachea of a patient who can't breath. It appears to me that by cutting the windpipe of an animal we are actually improving it's ability to breath.
Avrohom Tzvi Elias, Haifa, Eretz Isroel
The difference can be found in the laws of Tereifos. "Nekuvas ha'Kaneh" (a puncture in the trachea) does not render the animal a Tereifah. The animal can live with a hole in the trachea. Shechitah must cut a majority of the trachea. Accordingly, the animal cannot inhale if the trachea is severed rather than punctured.
D. Zupnik
I would be interested in hearing from a vet on this matter because there are documented cases of animals living with fully cut windpipes. The most famous is the case of "Mike the Chicken" who lived 18 months after its non-Jewish owner tried to kill it by chopping off its head. The cut went awry leaving one ear and most of the brain stem. The cut missed the jugular vein and any bleeding blood vessels developed clots. Nevertheless,the bird lived. Periodically, its owner used a syringe to suction out phlegm and placed feed into the animal's esophagus. The bird's death came one night when its owner awoke to sounds of the chicken choking and could not find the syringe fast enough. (See http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm for more details.)
Veterinarians say that the majority of the autonomic function in a chicken is contained in the brain stem and that the vast majority of Mike's brain stem survived the cleaver strike. While it is certain that without the owner's care the chicken would have died earlier, it is also clear the the chicken did not die shortly after its head was chopped off.
Please see pictures attached.
Dear Rabbi,
Perhaps the question should be: "Does Shehita kill the animal"
Many years ago - when I was serving with Tsahal in Egypt in Milhemet Yom Kippur - I shechted chickens, and then I was given a goose; I wanted to give it to my supervisor, a Hacham and experienced shochet, but he said that I am fully qualified.
I did the shechita and showed the Hacham and he said all was fine and Kosher.
I dropped the goose on the pile of shechted fowl - and it got up and ran away!
We saw the goose with a red stain on its neck for many days. The red stain slowly got brown and then black and dropped away section by section.
I told this experience to a few shochtim, and many confirmed that they also had - or had heard of - such experiences.
Since the Halacha is that we may not eat frrom the meat until the animal does die - I have no problem with shechita, especially as we normally do as Rabbi Yehuda says in the mishna: we do cut the "veridim".
My main problem is with the gemara explaining that Rabbi Yehuda says we must cut the "veridim" only in fowl.
Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander
I am a veterinarian. In my opinion the blood vessels must be cut in order to cause the death of the animal in a few seconds.
Ed Parver
IN SUMMARY:
(a) It seems that Shechitah indeed does not necessarily cause the clinical death of an animal. After Shechitah, the animal is not considered to be Ever Min ha'Chai, Halachically speaking, simply because it was slaughtered -- whether or not it is alive physically.
This is in fact evident from the Halachah that a Mefarkeses (an animal that still squirms after being slaughtered or beheaded) is considered to be *alive* for all purposes (Chulin 30a), and a non-Jew who eats meat taken from a Mefarkeses is Chayav Misah for Ever Min ha'Chai. The only exception to this is when the animal was slaughtered with a Halachically valid Shechitah. If a kosher Shechitah was performed, since the animal is permitted to Jews, it is permitted to non-Jews as well (see Chulin 33a; YD 27:1). That is to say, Shechitah removes the Isur of Ever Min ha'Chai from the animal for Jews and non-Jews, even though the animal is actually still alive.
(b) All this does not mean that one may eat from an animal while it is Mefarkeses. The Halachah dictates that it may not be eaten until after it is totally dead, because of another Isur: Lo Sochlu Al ha'Dam (Sanhedrin 63a, Chulin 33a, YD ibid.).
In addition, we find that it is not considered Derech Eretz to eat from an animal before the entire animal has been cut up and skinned, lest it be discovered that the animal was a Tereifah during the process of cutting it up (Beitzah 25b and Tosfos there DH Orach).
(c) Mike the Headless Chicken, who lived over a year after it was beheaded, raises another question. If an animal with a partially slit trachea or esophagus is a Tereifah and cannot live for 12 months, how did Mike live that long? (It seems from the Gemara Chulin 57b that even if one cares for the animal medically, it will not live 12 months.)
To answer this, it would seem that resorting to the argument that "nature has changed" is not necessary in this case, since it is clear that even today Mike was an oddity. Therefore an easier answer could be suggested: even the 12 month rule can have exceptions in *extremely* rare cases.
Another possibility is that the cutting of the trachea or esophagus makes an animal a Tereifah only when they are not cut open entirely and exposed, since then they neither feed/breathe in the natural way, nor can they be fed/helped to breath by hand, since the organs involved are not exposed.
(d) On a related note, regarding the humanity of the laws of Shechitah (especially when considering that it does not necessarily kill the animal if one slaughters without cutting the arteries), we in the Kollel once heard that Shechitah is the most humane way of causing the death of an animal since the Shechitah cut first incises a major nerve that causes the animal to feel no pain, even before the trachea and esophagus are cut. (See also what we wrote in the discussion forum for Chulin 2, question 1)
Do you have any comments on this, Ed (or the other vets in the audience)?
M. Kornfeld
In my humble opinion something should be pointed out here. This question doesn't apply to cattle which needs that both Simanim be cut, and Nekuvas ha'Veshet b'Ma'she'hu (and perhaps the combination of the cutting of the two tubes weakens the animal enough to kill it). However with regard to fowl, cutting most of the windpipe is a valid Shechitah. (That is the case in which you are wondering how the fowl "dies" through Shechitah.)
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
The way that my chevrusa and I understood the concept of treif is that it would die naturally were it not for any human intervention preventing that death from occuring. Because the person was feeding the chicken through a syringe, etc, that does not prevent the status of being a treif. An example of this concept would be the cow which can no longer graze being treif (45B) even though it could easily be kept alive by human intervention. Is this the proper perspective?
Josh Marder
I am not sure that what you say is consistent with the Gemara on 57b. There we are told of someone who made a splint for a chicken with a dislocated thigh, and yet the Gemara insists that it would not be able to help the bird survive longer than 12 months since a dislocated thigh makes a bird a Tereifah, and a Tereifah cannot be made to live longer than 12 months (if Tereifah Einah Chayah).
Perhaps, though, the Gemara is talking about the norm, i.e. commonly available types of therapy. In very very unusual situations a Tereifah can perhaps be made to live longer than 12 months, either by using a normally unavailable type of therapy, or if the animal had some outstanding quality. (It is obvious that "imitations" of Mike the Headless Chicken have yet to arrive; it must have been an extremely unusual situation due to a combination of factors.)
M. Kornfeld
I am not a vet but an Ear, Nose and Throat Surgeon. It is clear that in the case of humans then can certainly survive with both trachea and esophagus completely severed. Yes, they would need other routes of nutrition and a way of securing the cut end of the trachea to the skin to prevent it closing off (as in a laryngectomy).
But, the question still seems to stand that unless the Dam Nefesh is released i.e. via cutting the carotid artery or jugular veins then the animal may not necessarily die, yet this does not appear to be a halachic requirement for shechita (for Chulin)?
Dr. Elliot Benjamin BSc. (Hons), MRCS., DLO
I am only half paying attention, so please excuse me if my question is ignorant. Does all of this mean, kosher chicken suffocate to death? Is that humane?
Avigayil
Avigayil,
It has been said that Shechitah is the most humane way of causing the death of an animal. The Shechitah cut first incises a major nerve that causes the animal to feel no pain even before the trachea and esophagus are cut.
For an interesting perspective on the matter, see http://www.jewishveg.com/DSvision.html .
Y. Shaw
D.A.F.
It seems that if one slaughters an animal properly, the animal dies and is now kosher.
I asked various people but the animal doesn't die if only the esophagus and trachea are cut, and a bird if only one siman is cut! I then spoke to a frum veterinarian in our community, and he told me the following: Indeed, if the jugular and carotid arteries are not cut, the animal will not die if the head is held up (if the head is not kept in a certain position, the trachea will be blocked and air intake will stop). After a day or so, the meat will start going bad, but it will take a while for the animal to die. Because of tzaar baalai chayim and to promote maximum blood drainage, one should cut the blood vessels so that the animal dies quickly, and shechita is the most painless way to kill an animal, etc but cutting the two simonim alone, or just one in a bird, would not kill the animal or bird if the trachea was not blocked. The animal would live at least for a day or more.
I now would appreciate any comments explaining the role of schechita, if it does not kill the animal. I know that in the real world, the shoctim cut the veins and the animal dies very quickly, but theoretically, what is the purpose of cutting just one (bird) or two (behaima) simanim if that does not kill the animal? This is sort of a doresh taima d'kra question.
Many thanks,
Avrohom Meyer Kohn, Los Angeles, CA USA
Shalom, Avrohom Meyer. The Gemara in Chulin 27a calls Shechitah "Chituy" with a Tes ("Chatehu") meaning purification, or "Chituy" with a Taf, meaning breaking (in a moral sense) i.e. defeating. We are told to "purify" the animal by making it "bow" (bend down - i.e. from the neck) or to do so from the place where the animal "talks".
From all this, it would appear that the point is to *humble* the living spirit of the animal (which is what characterizes it as an animal), and the act which normally accomplishes that is Shechitah. This "purifies" the animalistic spirit, which represents unthrottled fulfillment of one's desires.
(See also Magid Meisharim of the Beis Yosef, cited in Yosef Da'as at the end of the second Perek of Chulin, where the Magid tells the Beis Yosef that Shechitah is meant to remove the blood - representing the part of the Satan - from the trachea - representing a person's part in Olam ha'Ba - and the gullet - representing a person's part in Olam ha'Zeh.)
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf.
I am attaching some comments the Kollel made on this subject a number of years ago.
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf
I would be interested in hearing from a vet on this matter because there are documented cases of animals living with fully cut windpipes. The most famous is the case of "Mike the Chicken" who lived 18 months after its non-Jewish owner tried to kill it by chopping off its head. The cut went awry leaving one ear and most of the brain stem. The cut missed the jugular vein and any bleeding blood vessels developed clots. Nevertheless,the bird lived. Periodically, its owner used a syringe to suction out phlegm and placed feed into the animal's esophagus. The bird's death came one night when its owner awoke to sounds of the chicken choking and could not find the syringe fast enough. (See http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm for more details.)
Veterinarians sain that the majority of the autonomic function in a chicken is contained in the brain stem and that the vast majority of Mike's brain stem survived the cleaver strike. While it is certain that without the owner's care the chicken would have died earlier, it is also clear the the chicken did not die shortly after its head was chopped off.
(a) It seems that Shechitah indeed does not necessarily cause the clinical death of an animal. After Shechitah, the animal is not considered to be Ever Min ha'Chai, Halachically speaking, simply because it was slaughtered -- whether or not it is alive physically.
This is in fact evident from the Halachah that a Mefarkeses (an animal that still squirms after being slaughtered or beheaded) is considered to be *alive* for all purposes (Chulin 30a), and a non-Jew who eats meat taken from a Mefarkeses is Chayav Misah for Ever Min ha'Chai. The only exception to this is when the animal was slaughtered with a Halachically valid Shechitah. If a kosher Shechitah was performed, since the animal is permitted to Jews, it is permitted to non-Jews as well (see Chulin 33a; YD 27:1). That is to say, Shechitah removes the Isur of Ever Min ha'Chai from the animal for Jews and non-Jews, even though the animal is actually still alive.
(b) All this does not mean that one may eat from an animal while it is Mefarkeses. The Halachah dictates that it may not be eaten until after it is totally dead, because of another Isur: Lo Sochlu Al ha'Dam (Sanhedrin 63a, Chulin 33a, YD ibid.).
In addition, we find that it is not considered Derech Eretz to eat from an animal before the entire animal has been cut up and skinned, lest it be discovered that the animal was a Tereifah during the process of cutting it up (Beitzah 25b and Tosfos there DH Orach).
(c) On a related note, regarding the humanity of the laws of Shechitah (especially when considering that it does not necessarily kill the animal if one slaughters without cutting the arteries), we in the Kollel once heard that Shechitah is the most humane way of causing the death of an animal since the Shechitah cut first incises a major nerve that causes the animal to feel no pain, even before the trachea and esophagus are cut. (See also what we wrote in the discussion forum for Chulin 2, question 1)
Dear Rabbi Kornfeld,
A proof to your comments is from yesterday's daf (12a), where the mishna teaches that the schechitah of a non-Jew, even, per Rashi, if done properly and with Jews observing it, is still invalid. This teaches me, at least, that shechitah is a religious ritual rather than a method of slaughter (and, as discussed below, it's not a method of slaughter as the animal won't die from the process).
This is why the Gemora later asks why cut at the neck rather than the tail etc because the purpose is not to kill the animal but rather to do a special act before eating the animal, which per your explanation below fits in well.
And yes, the same veterinarian that I spoke with said that shechitah as it is performed in practice ie cutting the arteries etc, is very effective in eliminating pain, and also that that studies have shown there is approximately 30% more blood drainage than with typical non-shechitah methods.
Kol tuv, Avrohom Meyer Kohn
Thank you for the insightful proof.
By the way, I later found in the Magid Meisharim of the Beis Yosef, cited in Yosef Da'as at the end of the second Perek of Chulin, where the Magid tells the Beis Yosef that Shechitah is meant to remove the blood - representing the part of the Satan - from the trachea - representing a person's part in Olam ha'Ba - and the gullet - representing a person's part in Olam ha'Zeh.
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Dear Rabbi Kornfeld,
We had both agreed that Schechita did not kill the animal, and that it was a ritual to be done only by Jews, to purify or humble the animal, and per the Maggid to serve other mystical purposes, and then comes today's daf (19a) in which the Gemora states that cutting the trachea causes the animal to die and one needs to be in the right spot when that happens - and Rashi and the Artscroll both use the language that "the life of the animal" departs when the trachea is cut. That clearly is not consistent with what my veterinarian told me, nor with what we had discussed.
The difficulty continues on Chullin 20b, where the Gemora assumes that if one cuts one simon in a bird, the bird dies. As the Artscroll on 20b-2 says "a bird certainly dies after only one pipe is severed". The sefer Sichas Chullin on that says it isn't true, we see the bird does not die (your initial response discussed a bird that lived for 18 months!).
Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Avrohom Meyer Kohn
That is an excellent point. But we cannot argue with the Gemara that says (Chulin 30a) that an animal which is Mefarkeses after 2 of its Simanim are slaughtered is considered to be alive for all intents and purposes.
It therefore stands to reason that the word "Chiyusa" (on 19a) and Mesah (on 20a) refer to "the state of being slaughtered", rather than actually whether the animal is dead or alive. (This is certainly the Gemara's intention, as is evident from the Gemara there.)
The Gemara uses the term "death" to refer to slaughter, because no matter how we will explain the purpose of kosher slaughter it is significantly "lessening" the animals life, at least in terms of quality. Thus, the word "killing" can by used synonymously with Shechitah, even if Shechitah does not remove the animal's Neshamah entirely.
Be well,
Mordecai