More Discussions for this daf
1. Our current dating 2. Unoriginal Language 3. מלכות יון ומלכות רומי
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - AVODAH ZARAH 9
1. Dr Joseph Berger asked:

In my venerable Soncino translation, actually dated 1934, the author of this section has a very interesting discussion on the term 'matnita' referring to the Baraita at the end of 9b, suggesting that this is the only reference in the gemarra to our present day 5770 counting. Not only that, he comments on a number of manuscripts that scholars concluded were actually forgeries, trying to establish various dates for when our current practice became widely accepted. He concludes that it was probably in Germany and France 12th-14th centuries - rather than Spain. In other words, though the Baraita suggests that the rabbanim of the gemarra were well aware of this, it seems to have been 'forgotten' or 'overlooked' for many centuries before being revived and coming into general acceptance. Any comments?

Dr Joseph Berger, Toronto Canada

2. The Kollel replies:

Shalom Dr. Berger,

It's great to hear from you!

1) Indeed, it seems that counting from Bri'as ha'Olam was not always the standard dating method. In fact, it is interesting that several sources use various dating methods which start from other points in time (Yetzi'as Mitzrayim, the building of Bayis Rishon, Churban Bayis Rishon, Galus, non-Jewish kings), not from Creation. For example, see Mechilta (Yisro 19:1), Yerushalmi Rosh Hashanah (1:1 or 1b), Yechezkel 40:1, Chagai 1:1, Mishnayos Yadayim 4:8).

2) We find, however, that Rabeinu Tam (cited by Tosfos to Gitin 80b), the Tur (Even ha'Ezer, end of Siman 127), and the Ran (Gitin 42a of the pages of the Rif) all record that in their time (the Ran lived in the mid-1300's in Catalonia) the universal practice was to date a get from Creation.

3) In addition, the Rambam in Mishneh Torah discusses the year in which he was writing. In Hilchos Kidush ha'Chodesh (11:16) he mentions the "current" year being 4938 since Creation, which is the secular year 1178. Moreover, in Hilchos Shemitah v'Yovel (10:4), in what appears to be an effort to be as unambiguous as possible, he mentions the "current" year in terms of three different sytems: since the Churban, the Minyan Shtaros, and since Creation.

4) The Rambam elsewhere (Hilchos Gerushin 1:27) writes that by his time the custom had already been adopted to date a Get counting from Creation or from Alexander's coronation (i.e., Minyan Shtaros), and he gives both options later (4:12) when laying out the formula for the body of a Get.

5) The Shulchan Aruch (Even ha'Ezer 127:10) rules that one should use the date from Creation when writing a Get. He also recognizes that this counting system was so common that even if the Sofer would leave out the words "l'Bri'as Olam," the Get is nevertheless valid.

6) Interestingly, the Jewish Encyclopedia reports that the gravestone of Rav Elijah Levita says he passed away in the year 309 (shorthand for 5309) which in terms of the secular date is 1549.

7) For the writing of a Kesubah, too, widespread practice has been to use the date since Creation. But even there, there are varying customs: for example, some communities -- most notably Yemenite -- even today use the date of Minyan Shtaros.

8) It could be that the ancient synagogue in Susya (Byzantine era, ~300-800 CE) used to date from Creation.

9) What is less known is the fact that there are actually a few slight variations on the system counting from Creation. See Pischei Teshuvah EH 127:16.

Warmly,

Yishai Rasowsky

Sources: For many of the sources and background on this issue I consulted the article in the Jewish Encyclopedia:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6863-gravestones

and also the article by Rabbi Dr. Ari Z. Zivotofsky:

https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-the-truth-about-jews-counting-years-starting-from-creation