More Discussions for this daf
1. Tosfos, pushing bundles of reeds into another Reshus 2. Transferring an Item 4 Amos in Reshus ha'Rabim above 10 Tefachim 3. Carrying a Kevares
4. Pillar of 9 Tefachim 5. Techum Shabbos 6. Shvus During Bein ha'Shemashos
7. Seven and a bit 8. Kaveres 9. Help!
10. Bottom Tosfos on 8b 11. A wheelbarrow on Shabbat 12. THROWING A BASKET INTO RESHUS HA'RABIM
13. Wording of the Gemara "Kol Davar..." 14. "l'Ma'alah"
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 8

Elimelech Guttman asked:

The Gemorra tells us that if a Kaveres of 7 and 1/2 is thown into a Rshus Hrabim, the person is patur beause it made a Hanacha in the makom ptur. My Chavrusa R' Herschel Leiberman asked that he should be chayiv since it landed physically afterwards totally in the Rshus Harabim? plus, that was where the intended hanacha was planned to be, not in mid air? Personally I thought to anwer from Daf 9a that once it already landed in the makom ptur even if it lands afterwards in the rshus harabim he is patur. But that only answers his first question.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

The Kollel replies:

Even though the Kaveres eventually lands completely in Reshus ha'Rabim, the person who threw it from Reshus ha'Yachid is Patur because it was already considered to be resting (i.e., a Hanachah) in a Mekom Petur (when its bottom side was three Tefachim above Reshus ha'Rabim). The person's Akirah was finished when it rested in the Mekom Petur (and when there is a new Akirah it travels only from the Mekom Petur to Reshus ha'Rabim, and one is not Chayav for bringing something from a Mekom Petur to Reshus ha'Rabim). I believe this is what your answer was as well.

As far as where he intented for it to land, I don't think his intention here makes a difference.

The question, however, is that Tosfos (8b) says that something that is rolling is not considered to be resting (i.e. a Hanachah) on the ground until it comes to rest. If so, the Kaveres should not be considered Munach in the Mekom Petur since it is still moving!

It must be that when we say that rolling on the ground is not considered as Munach, that is only relative to its movement a moment ago, when it was also rolling on the ground. But with regard to flying through the air, if it is now rolling on the ground, or within three Tefachim of the ground, it is considered Munach. (See the case on 100a and Tosfos/Tosfos ha'Rosh there DH v'Ha, regarding throwing an object less than four Amos in Reshus ha'Rabim, and the object rolls outside of four Amos, where he is Patur because of the Hanachah within 4 Amos.) Therefore, your answer that it is considered Munach already and there is a new Akirah from a Makom Petur is correct.

Be well,

-Mordecai

Elimelech Guttman asked:

(The Kollel wrote:)

> As far as where he intented for it to land, I don't think his intention here makes a difference.

Dear Reb Mordecai,

Please explain why it doesn't make a difference.

The Kollel replies:

One's intention that it land somewhere else than where it actually

landed is able to exempt him from a Chatas, but it cannot be

Mechayev him, as in this case.